Replacement for Chip n Pin?

[Vonhelmet]

the irony is, its no more secure than swipe and signature- it IS quicker though...when it works...

TG

How is it less secure?

1) The system checks the PIN. Till tarts - excuse me, point of sale assistants - hardly ever check signatures.
2) The PIN is not on the card, the signature is. You can't casually pinch the card and learn the signature or bank on point 1) coming into play.

 

[VeNT]

How is it less secure?

1) The system checks the PIN. Till tarts - excuse me, point of sale assistants - hardly ever check signatures.
2) The PIN is not on the card, the signature is. You can't casually pinch the card and learn the signature or bank on point 1) coming into play.

how meny times have you heard the person infront of you (normaly a granny) saying "oh its ......" when asked to put their pin in.
get it lots down here in cornwall. how is this secure?

 

[iv-tecman]

How is it less secure?

1) The system checks the PIN. Till tarts - excuse me, point of sale assistants - hardly ever check signatures.
2) The PIN is not on the card, the signature is. You can't casually pinch the card and learn the signature or bank on point 1) coming into play.

No, I don't think chip n pin is "less" secure, as you're right. But it's not the ultra secure systems the banks have advertised the system as... False sense is worse then keeping guard I feel.

nothing has been done to say "keep it safe" and "watch who is watching" when typing your pin. Only the other day in Tesco I had to tell someone to "back off" as I typed my pin in. He was standing almost on top of me..

I do feel in-secure with chip n pin, as the problem is that now they can follow you, nick your card and beat the pin out of you. Now I'll put up a fight, but three - four against one isn't going to work, and I worry about my mum as she cannot fend off attacks. Not to say this will happen.

Chip n pin is for banks to offload the fraud to the shop only I feel...

 

[jhmaeng]

Why don't card companies offer to put a photo of you on the Credit/Debit Card? Instant photo-ID without requiring another form of ID.

Korea had this for a few years - if you wanted, they would stick a small passport photo of you in the corner. A shop assistant who takes the card, looks at the photo (how can you not?) and still accept payment when the holder is clearly not the person on the photo would have to be very, very silly.

 

[Lt. Manlove]

I think considering Chip & Pin has just been enforced, they should continue using it because I do not see a problem with typing in your pin so long as you shield it.

 

[Vonhelmet]

how meny times have you heard the person infront of you (normaly a granny) saying "oh its ......" when asked to put their pin in.
get it lots down here in cornwall. how is this secure?

That's retarded user error, not a fault of the system. The PIN still isn't written on the card, so my point stands.

 

[Vonhelmet]

No, I don't think chip n pin is "less" secure, as you're right. But it's not the ultra secure systems the banks have advertised the system as... False sense is worse then keeping guard I feel.

Oh, I agree that it's not ultra secure and unbreakable, but it is an improvement.

nothing has been done to say "keep it safe" and "watch who is watching" when typing your pin. Only the other day in Tesco I had to tell someone to "back off" as I typed my pin in. He was standing almost on top of me..

Yeah, I'll give you that too. I'll bet all that advice is in the documentation you get sent with the cards that no one bothers to read though.

I do feel in-secure with chip n pin, as the problem is that now they can follow you, nick your card and beat the pin out of you. Now I'll put up a fight, but three - four against one isn't going to work, and I worry about my mum as she cannot fend off attacks. Not to say this will happen.

Well, that used to happen just so they could get money out of the cash machine so that's not really any different.

Chip n pin is for banks to offload the fraud to the shop only I feel...

In part, you're probably right. I still believe there are benefits to the end user though.

 

[Treefrog]

How is it less secure?

1) The system checks the PIN. Till tarts - excuse me, point of sale assistants - hardly ever check signatures.
2) The PIN is not on the card, the signature is. You can't casually pinch the card and learn the signature or bank on point 1) coming into play.

On that score, it's ridiculously easy to shoulder surf someone in the supermarket and learn their PIN that way. Then all that's needed is the card - pick their pocket, dip their bag or break into their house, pass "Go"(the nearest ATM) and collect £200!

On the point that fraud has been reduced by x%:

Supposedly card fraud in France has been reduced by 80 per cent since starting using chip and PIN but it's unclear whether that's a reduction in the actual fraud taking place (which is admittedly hard to quantify) or just in the amount of money paid out by banks to the defrauded.

With C&P, if you can't prove that you didn't make the transaction, then you are assumed to have done it, and the bank is not liable for the loss. If a retailer accepts a transaction not verified by C&P then the banks aren't liable for that loss either.

One further comment (read the last line):

My bank decided that it would prefer to give me a Chip & Signature credit card rather than have me comply with their T&C on the Chip & PIN card.

The terms of the C&P card required "cardholders to notify the bank immediately the cardholder suspected anyone else knew their PIN" - the banks words not mine. I pointed out that everytime I used the card in a store I must suspect that someone knew my PIN (shop assistant, customer behind, CCTV camera operator). Even if I shielded my PIN I could not be sure nobody knew.
Therefore I was duty bound to call them and advise them of my suspicion and they could take what action they deemed necessary.

The T&C did not specify what action they would take and I would not insist on any. When they told me that the automatic action they would take was to cancel the card and re-issue it, the penny then dropped with the bank that they could either issue me 50 plus cards a year or issue a C&S card.

The thing I found interesting was the bank commenting that they didn't expect people to read the T&Cs. I wonder why.

 

[Alex_L]

i think there would be too many problems with a fingerprint system. Personally i have a fingerprint scanner on my laptop, and its great for logging on and locking it, and i suspect would deter the petty thiefs, but i'm not naive enough to pretend its unbreakable.

I'm also sure i read in the manuel for it that the fingerprint will only work if its a 'live' )has a pulse) fingerprint, and also it doesn't scan the print rather you swipe your finger over it, which i thought would have made faking it with playdough more difficult.


regarding chip and pin, i though after 14th feb transactions could be denied by the bank if it wasn't chip and pin authorised. But every bar or club i've been in since then still insist on signatures. Personally i think because if you're drunk you'll never get your pin right, and therefore they'd lose money, but whats the situation with this?

 

[The_TailGunner]

How is it less secure?

1) The system checks the PIN. Till tarts - excuse me, point of sale assistants - hardly ever check signatures.
2) The PIN is not on the card, the signature is. You can't casually pinch the card and learn the signature or bank on point 1) coming into play.

the till end is more secure i suppose, but a lot of card fraud is of the "watch someone put in pin number, nick card, empty bank account" sort....chip & pin just makes this easier.

the pin IS on the card- all the chip and pin terminal does is compare whats typed with the info on the chip.

getting the pin off the chip isnt impossible by any means, and you can guarantee that criminal organisations had means to do this before the technology was mainstream. considering every shop in the uk that is chip and pin enabled has a machine that can read the info from the chip, it wouldnt be hard to get the gear and do a little reverse engineering...

so its really no more secure than it was before- just as easy to defraud. the only advantage is that it is slightly harder to clone cards than before

 

[AFK_Matrix]

Why don't card companies offer to put a photo of you on the Credit/Debit Card? Instant photo-ID without requiring another form of ID.

Korea had this for a few years - if you wanted, they would stick a small passport photo of you in the corner. A shop assistant who takes the card, looks at the photo (how can you not?) and still accept payment when the holder is clearly not the person on the photo would have to be very, very silly.

I agree with the picture on credit cards idea, when i visited my aunt in America she had a credit card with her picture on it. I think this is a much better idea, or maybe this should be combined with the C&P and maybe even the fingerprint, so you have 3 things that the person needs to steal from you to get your money.

Mind you all this doesn't stop online fraud, for instance on the OCUK site all u need to do is fill in all the info from the card you have stolen and voila you get your nice spanking new £2000 system

So whats in the future for stopping fruad on the internet, as i would not want to input my pin on a website, as thats asking for trouble.

 

[Vanilla]

I can't believe how many people don't see how much better chip and pin is.

It is a hundred times better and safer than signing. The notion that a would be shoplifter / theif / mugger is going to get behind you in the queue, see you type your pin then mug you is a scaremongering fantasy.

 

[The_TailGunner]

I can't believe how many people don't see how much better chip and pin is.

It is a hundred times better and safer than signing. The notion that a would be shoplifter / theif / mugger is going to get behind you in the queue, see you type your pin then mug you is a scaremongering fantasy.

well- it happened all the time before chip and pin. someone would shoulder-surf to get your pin number, then pick pocket you, then go to the atm and empty your account. its a well known problem, and has been for yonks. chip and pin just gives the crims another chance to view your pin number being typed in...

 

[Vanilla]

well- it happened all the time before chip and pin. someone would shoulder-surf to get your pin number, then pick pocket you, then go to the atm and empty your account. its a well known problem, and has been for yonks. chip and pin just gives the crims another chance to view your pin number being typed in...

I don't doubt that it had happened at some point, but did it ever get to the stage where entire ideas were backshelved because of this threat that i've never heard being a problem? In this day and age everyone is well aware of who is around them and how to cover their pin.

The latest craze was to clone the card as it was put into an ATM and get the pin via a camera. No contact with the person involved, no violence.

This cloning is not possible in a shop and the card only goes into a standard reader up to the chip and a camera would have to be placed in the shop ceiling. Then they would have to mug or pick pocket the person.

Flawless? No....but I feel the whole 'see your pin and mug you' brigade is pure scaremongering, making a greek tragedy out of something that isn't a widespread or common problem.

 

[VeNT]

That's retarded user error, not a fault of the system. The PIN still isn't written on the card, so my point stands.

but its still an issue with the system because it lets things like that HAPPEN!
if it was all fingerprint (if it worked) then there would be no risk of that.

 

[Vonhelmet]

the pin IS on the card- all the chip and pin terminal does is compare whats typed with the info on the chip.

Yes, I know that. When I say it's not on the card, I mean the card doesn't have the number printer on it, like it does your signature.

getting the pin off the chip isnt impossible by any means, and you can guarantee that criminal organisations had means to do this before the technology was mainstream. considering every shop in the uk that is chip and pin enabled has a machine that can read the info from the chip, it wouldnt be hard to get the gear and do a little reverse engineering...

Again, true, but are we talking about organised criminals or opportunist thieves? Is it really worth the while of organised criminals to go pick-pocketing and card hacking for such comparably small fish?

 

[The_TailGunner]

In this day and age everyone is well aware of who is around them and how to cover their pin.

no they aren't, and no they don't. practically nobody attempts to hie their pin, either at the atm or at the supermarket...

 

[The_TailGunner]

Again, true, but are we talking about organised criminals or opportunist thieves? Is it really worth the while of organised criminals to go pick-pocketing and card hacking for such comparably small fish?

organised criminals for the most part- they do it by having very quick turnaround times. its a quick, cheap and effective way to make a surprising amount of money.

agreed, c&p will help combat oppotunists, but it wont solve the issue

TG

 

[Vanilla]

no they aren't, and no they don't. practically nobody attempts to hie their pin, either at the atm or at the supermarket...

I disagree, I say that only the few do not. I've never seen anyone who is not careful with their pin, society is at such a stage where everyone knows the importance of the pin number. Reading threads like these shows how clued up people are, shows many people saying how careful they are how they noticed people standing close to them. I say those who are not caseful are the exception.

To date the only fraud i'm aware that have taken advantage of the PIN number is the camera strategically placed at an ATM (even then they could only use a handful because people cover the keypad) and the odd crime where someone has seen a PIN and mugged someone.

The key today regarding fraudulent purchases in stores is that you can remove the cards from the person and the cards can still be used via signatures. With Chip and pin if you remove the cards from the person the cards are useless. This stops opportunistic theives, muggers and organised crime regarding cloning.

 

[The_TailGunner]

I disagree, I say that only the few do not. I've never seen anyone who is not careful with their pin, society is at such a stage where everyone knows the importance of the pin number. Reading threads like these shows how clued up people are, shows many people saying how careful they are how they noticed people standing close to them. I say those who are not caseful are the exception.

its entirely possible that people from exeter are just retarded i suppose.