Road Cycling

Vonhelmet · 19 Dec 2017 at 16:21

All power meters under-read

merlin · 19 Dec 2017 at 16:23

Lethal` said:
How do you know the 4iiii isn't under-reading?

That would be my first suspicion for a power loss

Apparently most power meters are inaccurate but as long as it's consistent it's useful info to you.
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...hows-inaccuracies-popular-power-meters-330322

LOL, well......that's one way of looking at it and boy I do like your glass is half full approach there Lethal, but alas I do think the Vortex kinda has a reputation for over-reading.

My ftp is around 240 off the 4iiii, I'm almost certain that's spot on, my lack of watts is sort of balanced out by my low-ish body weight.

Yes absolutely - all you need is consistent figures, consistency is everything.

merlin · 19 Dec 2017 at 16:27

Roady said:
There's actually a firmware update for it the last couple of days so will be updating mine at some point this week. Interesting you found it that different, as all of my power related training is all done on the turbo I've not worried too much. I use power on the road more for pacing rather than training.

I can't find the release notes - don't suppose you know what the changes are Roady? If it's just pointless stuff I won't bother updating because last time I updated the firmware I really lost my rag with whole BT on BT off rinse and repeat and phone not finding the trainer/trainer not finding the laptop routine - it drove me ******g mental for about two hours. I'm not doing all that crap again unless it's absolutely totally necessary.

Roady · 19 Dec 2017 at 17:06

Haha, agreed it's a faff! Personally I only do it from my handset with my laptop (& Zwift off).

If I've had my laptop on I tend to power cycle the trainer first. My usual pain is it showing but not displaying speed on the Tacx Utility if I've not power cycled it after Zwifting before updating. :mad:

Bear · 19 Dec 2017 at 18:01

Roady said:
Very similar when you put it like that isn't it! Regarding dosing something else I read said that a majority of cyclists preferred to take it in tablet form at the start of a stage, rather than having to carry an inhaler or trips back to to team car to have a puff etc. Which totally makes sense, obviously a tablet is going to be a much more concentrated form so rightly requires a TUE. It also neatly explains how a urine sample would be so high - excess medication being excreted. Strangely not much more has been said about tablets as I bet something happened and he ended up taking one without a TUE. I bet he was really suffering and a member of the medical team misunderstood and double dosed him with the tablet form when he normally took the inhaler form (not needing TUE).

I mean if if they didn't and Froome actually had to carry an inhaler the amount of dosage they reported could've only come from multiple inhalers (wasn't the number 64 doses?!) used over the space a 4 hour 15mins race. Lets assume he didn't need a puff for the first 15 minutes, that is then one puff on average every 5 minutes, or more! Even if it's only 32, that's a dose/puff every 10 mins.

Having read quite a bit about it, it would seem it is quite easy to see how the Salbutamol was taken through testing. So whether it was via the inhaler, tablet or injection time will tell and should clarify things.

Phil99 · 19 Dec 2017 at 18:16

Roady said:
Great prices really, thankfully the 4iiii are fairly well regarded and accurate and along with the mini price war they've had with Stages has really helped! Bit of a shame a similar thing hasn't happened with the pedal PWM's from Powertap and Garmin to drive their prices down.

4iiii are also releasing their new Podiiiium power meters in January with single and dual sided options. Same internals as the Precision. That means you can upgrade an existing Precision left-only setup to dual sided in the future (their existing dual-sided power meters are Dura Ace only, Podiiiium covers a far wider range). I've been in touch with their sales dept. and the pricing for the upgrade will be $350 USD, but you have to send your own crank and pay postage + VAT + duty on top of that. Still doesn't sound too bad. I'm very tempted!

BennyC · 19 Dec 2017 at 21:50

merlin said:
I've set my Zwift up to use the 4iiii for power so I've now got all power reading from the same unit whether indoors or outdoors.

You may very well find variances in RPE for given power outputs when indoors or outdoors. Partly psychosomatic but also trainer inertia can have a notable effect on pedal stroke firing patterns, not to mention your position indoors (for most) tends to be or feel a little different to that of the road.

Phil99 said:
4iiii are also releasing their new Podiiiium power meters in January with single and dual sided options. Same internals as the Precision. That means you can upgrade an existing Precision left-only setup to dual sided in the future (their existing dual-sided power meters are Dura Ace only, Podiiiium covers a far wider range). I've been in touch with their sales dept. and the pricing for the upgrade will be $350 USD, but you have to send your own crank and pay postage + VAT + duty on top of that. Still doesn't sound too bad. I'm very tempted!

If Avio ever get the PowerSense off the ground it'll be one to watch. Had one on order earlier in the year, supposedly releasing around May/June but some unforeseen strain gauge delays put an end to that. It was a want (as a spare, as I have a set of P1's) rather than a need so opted for a refund and first refusal when it does eventually launch

merlin · 19 Dec 2017 at 22:18

BennyC said:
You may very well find variances in RPE for given power outputs when indoors or outdoors. Partly psychosomatic but also trainer inertia can have a notable effect on pedal stroke firing patterns, not to mention your position indoors (for most) tends to be or feel a little different to that of the road.

That's interesting - things I'd not considered before.

One really strange thing I have seen is that indoors I tend to revert, when I'm in difficulty, to a bit of upstroke leg action. Last indoor run this felt completely right and very productive on the trainer - I saw a power increase immediately and so it pretty much got me out of trouble. Yet out on the road it doesn't feel even remotely as efficient/productive or worthwhile. I wonder if the inertia or position explanations apply here?

Bear · 20 Dec 2017 at 06:38

merlin said:
One really strange thing I have seen is that indoors I tend to revert, when I'm in difficulty, to a bit of upstroke leg action. Last indoor run this felt completely right and very productive on the trainer - I saw a power increase immediately and so it pretty much got me out of trouble. Yet out on the road it doesn't feel even remotely as efficient/productive or worthwhile. I wonder if the inertia or position explanations apply here?

I'm the same, I tend to pull up on the pedals when I have just completed a tough interval probably to rest the usual muscles a bit which I never do on the road probably because I never ride on the road to that intensity

Roady · 20 Dec 2017 at 09:56

Have to say I do similar, certainly when sprinting I'll have far more power by pulling up through the upstroke, there's enough resistance there so the effort really feels effective, with my Vortex I do max it out on the downstroke (frequently when I kick) so pulling through the upstroke feels like just continuation of the stroke not really a separate action. Out on the road there's so little resistance in the upstroke action (with no maxing out of the power on the downstroke) so I don't really do it to the same degree. It's still there as part of the pedal stroke - fast sprinting action will always carry some upstroke power (just from trying to get the pedal around as quick as possible).

I think a large part of the fluid/smooth pedalling technique (souplesse?!) is extending your lower pedal stoke action slightly further, so it naturally progresses into the upstroke rather than it being distinct upward & downward definitions. The whole 'pedal in circles' saying isn't telling people to pull through the upstroke, just to try and aim towards a fluid action. The more recent idea is to pull through the bottom of the pedal stroke, which I think comes from far too many people just 'stamping' the pedals and nothing else. Smoothness is key, so I think a small amount of 'pull' can only assist with that, certainly if you find yourself with a choppy (pedalling squares) stroke when fatigued.

Bear said:
Having read quite a bit about it, it would seem it is quite easy to see how the Salbutamol was taken through testing. So whether it was via the inhaler, tablet or injection time will tell and should clarify things.

Agreed, maybe I misunderstood something before as nothing I'm reading now is talking about it in tablet form, at least certainly not in this instance.

I guess we all know what Sky and Froome will be doing over the Christmas break:
https://www.wada-ama.org/en/prohibited-list/prohibited-at-all-times/beta-2-agonists

The presence in urine of salbutamol in excess of 1000 ng/mL or formoterol in excess of 40 ng/mL is presumed not to be an intended therapeutic use of the substance and will be considered as an Adverse Analytical Finding (AAF) unless the Athlete proves, through a controlled pharmacokinetic study, that the abnormal result was the consequence of the use of the therapeutic dose (by inhalation) up to the maximum dose indicated above.

The writeup of what Petacchi said is interesting - he kinda hints that his rule break came from the urine test being taken at a different time after a stage, ie before he'd had a chance to re hydrate. That the same could be true for Froome. I'm pretty sure if it is and therefore related to (de)hydration we'll soon hear about it as that'll probably be one of the easiest things for Sky/Froome to test & check.

Still begs the question, if hydration/dehydration is able to effect test results in such a way how are the WADA/UCI (nevermind the teams & us) only finding out about it now.

BennyC said:
You may very well find variances in RPE for given power outputs when indoors or outdoors. Partly psychosomatic but also trainer inertia can have a notable effect on pedal stroke firing patterns

Totally agree, although I find it easier to go 'deeper and harder' on the turbo, I seem to recover from the efforts far more easily than fatigue from rides outdoors.

merlin · 20 Dec 2017 at 10:17

Roady said:
Have to say I do similar, certainly when sprinting I'll have far more power by pulling up through the upstroke, there's enough resistance there so the effort really feels effective, with my Vortex I do max it out on the downstroke (frequently when I kick) so pulling through the upstroke feels like just continuation of the stroke not really a separate action. Out on the road there's so little resistance in the upstroke action (with no maxing out of the power on the downstroke) so I don't really do it to the same degree. It's still there as part of the pedal stroke - fast sprinting action will always carry some upstroke power (just from trying to get the pedal around as quick as possible).

I think a large part of the fluid/smooth pedalling technique (souplesse?!) is extending your lower pedal stoke action slightly further, so it naturally progresses into the upstroke rather than it being distinct upward & downward definitions. The whole 'pedal in circles' saying isn't telling people to pull through the upstroke, just to try and aim towards a fluid action. The more recent idea is to pull through the bottom of the pedal stroke, which I think comes from far too many people just 'stamping' the pedals and nothing else. Smoothness is key, so I think a small amount of 'pull' can only assist with that, certainly if you find yourself with a choppy (pedalling squares) stroke when fatigued.

There's definitely two different sets of upstroke - there's the upstroke to get a sprint going (especially effective if on a slight incline) which always feels super effective and is stood up and perhaps leaning forwards a touch too, then there's the seated climb upstroke - when you're really having to dig and look for options - it's that where I just don't find it beneficial/efficient, except on the turbo - where it seems to work an absolute dream. More experimentation needed for me at least because on the turbo it was a real get out of jail card - putting power out, but almost getting leg rest at the same time, I'd like to be able to call upon that out on the road.

Roady · 20 Dec 2017 at 11:30

Ah I see what you're meaning now, I guess the relief feeling comes from just using difference muscles so the primary ones used on the downstroke are used less, while maintaining the same power output?

In case anyone missed - Alex Dowsett had a very close call with an oncoming overtaking 4x4. Interesting emotional write up/reactionary twitter post about it.

Steve Abraham (currently semi-recovering from an illness/diagnosis and trying to rebuild his mileage) was clipped by an overtaking car. Superficial injuries only (hopefully) but I love this quote: "
As I've had people ask what my resting pulse is, it went down to 37bpm when I was in hospital and warmed up again. It gave the medic a fright until I told him I cycle about 200 miles a day. I even got a free sandwich."

On a lighter note, spotted this amazing Condor Leggaro colour scheme. The Mavic wheels are a bit marmite but that frame colour separation on the seatpost/rear triangle I really like (I guess very similar to what Sky did in 2016 with the Dogma). :cool:

merlin · 20 Dec 2017 at 11:41

Roady said:
Ah I see what you're meaning now, I guess the relief feeling comes from just using difference muscles so the primary ones used on the downstroke are used less, while maintaining the same power output?

Yeah.

If you're on a (smart) turbo and mashing your way up a hill and begin to tire - switch to an upstroke and you'll get at a minimum power come back, but actually more like a power increase (engaging fresh muscles). Then try that outdoors - it just doesn't feel the same, not as effective.

Vonhelmet · 20 Dec 2017 at 12:58

So the guy at work who's taking over from me - I'm finishing today, moving back to my old job in central Manchester - is a keen cyclist. He was due to finish for Christmas yesterday and go off to a wedding today. We work in Warrington, just West of Manchester, and the wedding is in Dumfries. He was due to get a lift with a mate, but out of the blue this guy cancelled on him with like two days notice which left him in the lurch. So obviously he sent his kit with another guy and then set off from work and rode the 167 miles to Dumfries through the night. He set off from here at about 6pm last night and arrived there at about 8:30am this morning. 14 1/2 hours elapsed time, 12 1/4 hours moving time.

Mental.

BennyC · 20 Dec 2017 at 13:13

merlin said:
There's definitely two different sets of upstroke - there's the upstroke to get a sprint going (especially effective if on a slight incline) which always feels super effective and is stood up and perhaps leaning forwards a touch too, then there's the seated climb upstroke - when you're really having to dig and look for options - it's that where I just don't find it beneficial/efficient, except on the turbo - where it seems to work an absolute dream. More experimentation needed for me at least because on the turbo it was a real get out of jail card - putting power out, but almost getting leg rest at the same time, I'd like to be able to call upon that out on the road.

Developing a balanced pedal stroke is something I try and focus on during every ride. Useful article below regarding inertia and why same power output in different situations has differing RPE.

https://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/climbing-and-time-trialling-how-power-outputs-are-affected/

Off topic:

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/t...-rider-taken-off-roads-for-one-year.18804826/

Interesting that 250w/33mph is the cap before needing licensing/insurance for an electric bike, quite a large proportion of non-electric bicycles and cyclists can achieve that power and speed. Will it be long before we're riding at no more than 249w and 32.9mph and not self incriminating by riding with powermeters and uploading to Strava?

Roady · 20 Dec 2017 at 14:38

Really mild out there this lunchtime! I was still quite dressed as this morning being foggy & damp didn't feel that warm. It feels much warmer than 10 degrees... Really didn't need thermal shorts & thermal tights over the top... #sweatfest

One day I'll redeem my man points from the other half and be allowed out for this.

Vonhelmet said:
Mental.

Utterly mental but also pretty awesome! Gave him a random kudos. I'm actually surprised how flat that elevation profile looks!

BennyC said:
Developing a balanced pedal stroke is something I try and focus on during every ride. Useful article below regarding inertia and why same power output in different situations has differing RPE.

https://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/climbing-and-time-trialling-how-power-outputs-are-affected/

Great article, thanks for linking some interesting reading!

That ruling on the eBike speed/power is a little worrying...

UTmaniac · 20 Dec 2017 at 17:29

Vonhelmet said:
So the guy at work who's taking over from me - I'm finishing today, moving back to my old job in central Manchester - is a keen cyclist. He was due to finish for Christmas yesterday and go off to a wedding today. We work in Warrington, just West of Manchester, and the wedding is in Dumfries. He was due to get a lift with a mate, but out of the blue this guy cancelled on him with like two days notice which left him in the lurch. So obviously he sent his kit with another guy and then set off from work and rode the 167 miles to Dumfries through the night. He set off from here at about 6pm last night and arrived there at about 8:30am this morning. 14 1/2 hours elapsed time, 12 1/4 hours moving time.

Mental.

Wow, that's dedication! :eek:

My Xmas plans are currently in tatters, we were supposed to be spending it with mum and sister for the first time in years, but RMT have added 23rd and 27th to strike dates and the reduced Cross Country service is not operating south of Reading on strike days.

Only minor positive is I might be able to ride over the Xmas break and/or possibly use my ordered Direto turbo trainer, bought for ~£637, if ProBikeKit actually get around to dispatching it to me since ordering on Sunday!

Lethal` · 20 Dec 2017 at 23:54

If you're lucky they'll dispatch within a week. Took them 7 days to get my first order with them out.. and even then they claimed it had gone out on Sunday afternoon. It didn't leave them until Monday evening.

Roady · 21 Dec 2017 at 09:37

UTmaniac said:
My Xmas plans are currently in tatters, we were supposed to be spending it with mum and sister for the first time in years, but RMT have added 23rd and 27th to strike dates and the reduced Cross Country service is not operating south of Reading on strike days.

How about Megabus etc? I imagine they would capitalise on the strikes and put more buses on?

UTmaniac · 21 Dec 2017 at 12:52

Roady said:
How about Megabus etc? I imagine they would capitalise on the strikes and put more buses on?

No dice, sadly, we need to get home at a decent hour for my better half to work next Thursday.

Unless strikes get called off at the last minute, we are currently looking at popping up in January now instead, I'm gutted but I expect my mum is more upset... Was going to be my first Xmas in Wirral for over ten years.

My Direto was dispatched last night, so there is some hope it may arrive by tomorrow evening.