Ronaldinho says - no English team will go through

[BoomAM]

Milan play boring football?
Ah. The age old misconception of SeriaA. Lets all use the comment as the truth. Despite the fact that not many (if any), people here watch SeriaA week in week out.

 

[sunama]

People just don't like Chelsea and their achievement. They might say it is due to all the Russian money but they never liked Chelsea yrs ago when they were doing ok in the cup winners cup etc and were almost bankrupt.

ok time for me to take a dig at chelsea: in all honesty, cups are minor trophies. these are for clubs not worthy of competing for the league title (domestically) and champions league (in europe). if a team is strong, then their main focus will always be the league and if in europe, their aim will always be the champions league. the domestic cups (and the european cup winners cup/super cup) really arent that prestigeous. only in england do we place so much importance on the fa cup; elsewhere in europe the domestic cup isnt considered important.

this why i used to think chelsea fans were congratulating themselves a little too much after they won a few s*** cups. ever since then i developed a strong dislike for chelsea.

chelsea used to specialise in winning these minor trophies but with the advent of abramovich (this made chelsea more ambitious) they now concentrate on the league and CL.

abramovich has planned extremely well and all due credit to him - he has brought in the right personnel (got rid of ranieri when everyone was questioning whether this was the right decision) - and has stood by his decisions.

i think money has helped of course, but i dont think money in itself can win u the league anymore. you need the right players and right manager to make it all happen. last year chelsea spent biggest, yet won nothing. this year, mourinho has been the key factor.

if mourinho was at man utd, with the same players we have now, i think man utd would be top of the league right now. i think chelsea supporters should cherish the position they are in right now, cuz once mourinho leaves i cant see chelsea winning the league for another 50-100 yrs, regardless of how much money is poured into the team. real madrid probably have the biggest array of "names" that cost the most amount of money, yet they dont seem to be winning much these days.

for me, players are important, but the manager is absolutely crucial.

as a man utd fan, i hold nothing against chelsea and their current success. its now upto man utd and arsenal to catch up.

 

[JAzz]

I think some people need to go and watch Milan play 10 or 20 games in a season before they call them boring. They play very good football and I enjoy watching them, they know how to win 1-0 and when needed will win 4-0. Calling them boring I feel is wrong and they have a unbelievably good balance in their side when it comes to attacking and defending.

Well if I remember correctly then earlier this season Arsenal (your team??) were about 6points ahead of Chelsea so not only have Chelsea overturned this deficit but have added a 10 point lead on you, which is more that the lead Milan have over Juve. So unless you are saying Arsenal is a **** team you can't disagree no matter how blind/stubborn you are, that this overtaking was some feat by chelsea.

We were pretty **** around Oct/Nov as the stats suggest and went through a horror spell.

That was not a mistake by Collina - if you saw his position and Carvahlo's position there was never going to be a way where he could have seen the foul esp with all the players between them and also with carvahlo making sure the keepers body was between him and the ref.
Also how is Madrid technically good? they are good attacking but defensively lacking hence i would call them technically good in that respect.

I don't know where Collina was standing but him or the linesman should have spotted it as it was a very blatent foul.

When I say technically good I mean in terms of their players, their passing skills, shooting etc. Not in terms of their tactics...

Is that Arsenal you are talking about again? the good English side but very poor European side. Only made it once to CL quarters as far back as i can remember and the team to knock them out was Chelsea the team who can't seem to beat them in the premiership...hmm

Tell me apart from 1999 a team in the PL doing good in the CL, none of them have and whenever they have come up against good teams they have got knocked out. In our case even against not so good european teams!

What exactly do you mean by their business off the pitch? I have noticed a lot of what is said in the press etc about off the pitch events are all anti Chelsea. 1 main example Frisk saying he's retiring due to threats from Chelsea fans - did those fans send their season tickets as well to prove to him they are the ones? Also being fined for the Blackburn fracas - that happened due to poor refereeing by a ref who allowed fouls to go unpunished all by 1 team hence tempers flaring up. Ok blame the clubs for the fights but what about the ref who didn't even give a free kick for that foul which left Robben out injured all this time.

This Cole tapping up for example, the fact these leaks to the press seem very well planned and look blatently like someone is leaking them at certain times. Your manager's taking cheap shots at us isn't very nice either but to be fair Wenger has taken a few as well....

People just don't like Chelsea and their achievement. They might say it is due to all the Russian money but they never liked Chelsea yrs ago when they were doing ok in the cup winners cup etc and were almost bankrupt.

I've stated in the past why I don't like your team

 

[sunama]

Milan play boring football?
Ah. The age old misconception of SeriaA. Lets all use the comment as the truth. Despite the fact that not many (if any), people here watch SeriaA week in week out.

i watched the 2 legs of man utd vs milan. that was shockingly boring. for the first time in 8 yrs, i actually found myself switching between a man utd game and another game (chelsea vs barca).

this shows milan have the ability to turn any game into a boring 1-0 affair.

ps. i take nothing away from milan. they played their defensive style and prevented man utd from playing their attacking style. they were the worthy winners.

 

[sunama]

Tell me apart from 1999 a team in the PL doing good in the CL, none of them have and whenever they have come up against good teams they have got knocked out. In our case even against not so good european teams!

i think leeds made the semi finals once.
chelsea made the semi finals also.
man utd got knocked out in the semi finals a couple of times.

i would say reaching the semi finals or further in the CL is a good achievement. roughly speaking it intimates that you are one of the top 4 sides in the CL, which i would say is pretty good.

 

[JAzz]

To me getting to the semi finals is nothing to be that proud of, for others it may be different.

 

[maby66]

Jazz - just for a comparison - last year, at this time, Arsenal had 67 points from 27 games.
Thats a whole 3 points difference from Chelsea this season from 28.
So all of a sudden because another team is playing as well as you did last season, Arsenal have "lost the plot", Manchester United have "lost the plot".
For completeness MU were 2nd equal with Chelsea on 58, with Chelsea ahead on GD. That means that MU are actually ahead of their points total this time last year.
You don't do yourself any favours with this self justification that everything that Chelsea have done is rooted in poor football or dodgy business - it just constantly comes across as extremely sour grapes - a similar acheivement between Milan and Chelsea (catching and passing a rival from behind in the league) you automatically post that obviously Milans acheivement/team/tactical set up is greater/better/washes whiter becuase you couldnt stand to think that maybe Chelsea are better than Arsenal this year.
And please don't give me this "key players injured" stuff - it happens to all teams.
I'm only going to use Chelsea as a comparison (though I'm sure MU fans can talk about RvN etc) but this season, from the squad of 24 that JM started with we have lost Mutu completely, Robben for the first part of the season and again recently, Carvalho/Huth/Bridge and so on and so on.....its all swings and roundabouts and only results count.

Still - chin up, eh?
Least you're in the FA Cup still.

 

[BoomAM]

i watched the 2 legs of man utd vs milan. that was shockingly boring. for the first time in 8 yrs, i actually found myself switching between a man utd game and another game (chelsea vs barca).

this shows milan have the ability to turn any game into a boring 1-0 affair.

ps. i take nothing away from milan. they played their defensive style and prevented man utd from playing their attacking style. they were the worthy winners.

First things first.
Go and watch a load of Milan games. THEN comment on Milans playing style. Until then dont even bother. Because if you actually watch Milan play as much as i do, and see what they are about based upon more than a few games televised on UK TV, then you`ll see Milan are a joy to watch. As is most of SeriaA. I`d go as far to say that Milan AND Juve are probably better to watch play than most of the supposid "entertaining" teams.
People have got to get out of the habbit of labling SeriaA/Italian football as boring. It isnt. It used to be. But it isnt now.

 

[BoomAM]

To augment Jazz`s arguement:
(Asuming i got his point right).

Chelsea have done well to bring such a gap to the top of the premiership. But i myself am not impressed.
Look at it like this: ManU this season have been absolutely rubbish. They used to be one hell of a team. Now they`re fans are living off past glories.
Arsenal: Are just naff at the moment. Compared to last season.
So put simply, Chelsea have made ground up, and surpassed their two nearest rivals, when they`re rivals havnt exactely been at the top of their game. If Arsenal didnt have such a slump and Fergie actually made some good signings, then maybe the point difference would be impressive.
Now look at Milan. We were 8 points behind arguably one of the top 3 clubs in Europe. We had a few bad early results. We gained 8 points on a team that hasnt faltered as Arsenal & ManU have. We drew level on points and ahead on GD with a team that is probably one of the most well rounded teams in Europe.
And thats the difference that i, and i think Jazz, sees.

Theres nothing wrong with English football on the whole. In fact i think its getting interesting, we`re now seeing more than just Liverpool & Newcastle realistically vieing for the 4th CL spot, were seeing 4-5 teams that could realistically take that spot. The difference that were seeing is that the English game hasnt evolved to the point where it can compete as well as it used to with the Giants of Europe. ManU being the exception, and now Chelsea as well. The European game has changed. And the PL hasnt kept up.
And make all the excuses you want about being banned for 5 years or whatever. But bare in mind that over the last 5-6 years, ManU have ALLWAYS been a favourite for the CL. So that ban couldnt have affected the PL that bad could it?

 

[LionOfJudah]

This Cole tapping up for example, the fact these leaks to the press seem very well planned and look blatently like someone is leaking them at certain times. Your manager's taking cheap shots at us isn't very nice either but to be fair Wenger has taken a few as well....

You have a point there but surely it's not chelsea leaking these stories to the press - they wouldnt want to get into trouble. So it must be some other rival to whom it might make a difference and at this moment man u are the only team really involved at the top.

So put simply, Chelsea have made ground up, and surpassed their two nearest rivals, when they`re rivals havnt exactely been at the top of their game. If Arsenal didnt have such a slump and Fergie actually made some good signings, then maybe the point difference would be impressive.

This is a season when a team has lost only one league game so far all season (almost as good as Arsenal's record last year) yet everyone seems to forget this and it's all about Arsenal and Man u not performing this season.

Tell me apart from 1999 a team in the PL doing good in the CL, none of them have and whenever they have come up against good teams they have got knocked out. In our case even against not so good european teams!.

Well Leeds got to CL semis, Chelsea everytime they have played so far they have got to at least the quarter finals, man u usual minimum is quarters so they are all doing fairly well getting that far esp considering apart from man u and arsenal the others have never regularly been in the CL. Yes winning CL is better but getting to semis in ** first time in the tournament like Leeds is a big achievement. This is almost like senegal beating France in the WC, or Kenya reaching semis in the cricket WC.
It's only poor arsenal who cant seem to progress.

 

[sunama]

First things first.
Go and watch a load of Milan games. THEN comment on Milans playing style. Until then dont even bother. Because if you actually watch Milan play as much as i do, and see what they are about based upon more than a few games televised on UK TV, then you`ll see Milan are a joy to watch. As is most of SeriaA. I`d go as far to say that Milan AND Juve are probably better to watch play than most of the supposid "entertaining" teams.

like wenger said, everybody thinks they have the most beautiful wife at home.

boomam is looking through rose-tinted spectacles me thinks.



ps. just made a quick check to see what the score was with ac milan over the weekend (13th march): 1-0. do milan actually win a game by more than 1 goal, ever?

if u cant go to sleep, dont count sheep - just watch milan play.

 

[JAzz]

Oh man what have I got myself into I really can't be bothered but.....

Jazz - just for a comparison - last year, at this time, Arsenal had 67 points from 27 games.
Thats a whole 3 points difference from Chelsea this season from 28.
So all of a sudden because another team is playing as well as you did last season, Arsenal have "lost the plot", Manchester United have "lost the plot".
For completeness MU were 2nd equal with Chelsea on 58, with Chelsea ahead on GD. That means that MU are actually ahead of their points total this time last year.
You don't do yourself any favours with this self justification that everything that Chelsea have done is rooted in poor football or dodgy business - it just constantly comes across as extremely sour grapes - a similar acheivement between Milan and Chelsea (catching and passing a rival from behind in the league) you automatically post that obviously Milans acheivement/team/tactical set up is greater/better/washes whiter becuase you couldnt stand to think that maybe Chelsea are better than Arsenal this year.
And please don't give me this "key players injured" stuff - it happens to all teams.
I'm only going to use Chelsea as a comparison (though I'm sure MU fans can talk about RvN etc) but this season, from the squad of 24 that JM started with we have lost Mutu completely, Robben for the first part of the season and again recently, Carvalho/Huth/Bridge and so on and so on.....its all swings and roundabouts and only results count.

Still - chin up, eh?
Least you're in the FA Cup still.

See BoomAM's post. And last season we had 70 points compared to your 71 after 28 games. Your team has done really well but I stand by what I said, our team has not done as well as they could have. Main reason is last season the injuries we picked up we had good players to cover but we don't now. As the saying goes "**** happens" and it has just shown our squad isn't strong enough.

You have a point there but surely it's not chelsea leaking these stories to the press - they wouldnt want to get into trouble. So it must be some other rival to whom it might make a difference and at this moment man u are the only team really involved at the top.

The only people who should have access to this infomation is Chelsea or Arsenal. I somehow can't see us leaking infomation that will only unsettle us so that leaves one of other club. And what exactly will happen to Chelsea? A £100k fine, I'm sure Roman will have nightmares about that . The damage it does in unsettling players at another club and creating negative feeling around the club I'd say a £100k fine is well worth that.

This is a season when a team has lost only one league game so far all season (almost as good as Arsenal's record last year) yet everyone seems to forget this and it's all about Arsenal and Man u not performing this season.

You have been superb this season, never said otherwise. We haven't and I think we should have done much better. Not saying we should be top but we shouldn't be so far behind.

Well Leeds got to CL semis, Chelsea everytime they have played so far they have got to at least the quarter finals, man u usual minimum is quarters so they are all doing fairly well getting that far esp considering apart from man u and arsenal the others have never regularly been in the CL. Yes winning CL is better but getting to semis in ** first time in the tournament like Leeds is a big achievement. This is almost like senegal beating France in the WC, or Kenya reaching semis in the cricket WC.
It's only poor arsenal who cant seem to progress.

We got to the FA and Carling cup semi finals last season, I saw that as failure. I still stand by my comment, English teams have done very poorly in this competition. 1 finalist in like 20 years is poor (ok you can take the 5 years out because we were banned but it doesn't make the stats any better)

if u cant go to sleep, dont count sheep - just watch milan play.

Sorry mate but that comment just shows that you don't even watch them play. Juve can be very boring but Milan play very good organised football, I watch their matches whenever I get the chance. Maybe you're expecting the English gung ho approach but that doesn't work too well in Italy

 

[sunama]

This is a season when a team has lost only one league game so far all season (almost as good as Arsenal's record last year) yet everyone seems to forget this and it's all about Arsenal and Man u not performing this season.

precisely. i'm man utd through and through, but even i can acknowledge a team that is at the top of its game (chelsea). i think even if chelsea score 97+ pts this season, it wont be enough for some people.

you gotta give credit where its due. chelsea are attempting to win as many games as possible, regardless of how the opposition are performing and they doing very well at this.

milan i think, are extremely boring, but i acknowledge that they know how to get 'a result'. i would rather play boring football and win than play exciting football and lose. if man utd were playing boring football but winning 1-0 every game then i would love it.

arsenal are a bit patchy this year and are poor in europe every year. but domestically, year-in, year-out they are super competitive on a relatively small budget. wenger has been very good at this.

 

[HangTime]

once mourinho leaves i cant see chelsea winning the league for another 50-100 yrs, regardless of how much money is poured into the team. real madrid probably have the biggest array of "names" that cost the most amount of money, yet they dont seem to be winning much these days.

50-100 years? Getting a little carried away there I feel - how on earth do you think you predict how a team will be performing then is beyond me, do you have any idea how much things could change over that time? What is to say sometime in the next 50 years, maybe just maybe Chelsea will be able to appoint a manager who is of similar standard to Mourinho? Heck, all the current managers will be retired by then, so who knows who will be in charge at what clubs. As for Madrid, yes they've spent all that money and assembled all those "names", so lets take a look at their record under that policy (since 1998); they have won THREE TIMES as many Champions League titles as ANY other club in the world during that period.

 

[JohnnyG]

The damage it does in unsettling players at another club and creating negative feeling around the club I'd say a £100k fine is well worth that.

I'd wager that whatever unrest these reports leaked by 'Chelsea' have had on Arsenal are superficial compared to the damage in the dressing room caused by Coles' actions. I'd hate to be his manager or team-mate at the moment, yet he is 'innocent'; apparently

 

[sunama]

Maybe you're expecting the English gung ho approach but that doesn't work too well in Italy

yep. i like fast paced games where the score and outcome of the game can change in a seconds. thats what i mean by exciting.

when milan scored against man utd 1-0, in the 2nd leg i turned over completely to the chelsea game cuz i was confident that no more goals would be scored in that game and we had a result. in contrast, chelsea vs barca - if u stopped watching for even 5 mins, you couldve missed a goal or 2. it was compelling stuff. for a chelsea fan, that mustve been their best game of the season!!! barca vs chelsea will be remember for years to come. milan vs man utd will not be remembered. thats the difference.

another great game was arsenal vs man utd (earlier this year). chelsea vs arsenal was fantastic too.

it surprises me that jazz likes milan, given that arsenal play such entertaining, cavalier football which is the complete opposite to milan.

 

[sunama]

And what exactly will happen to Chelsea? A £100k fine, I'm sure Roman will have nightmares about that . The damage it does in unsettling players at another club and creating negative feeling around the club I'd say a £100k fine is well worth that.

for chelsea, fines mean nothing. i personally think that each individual circumstance should be judged on its own merits. in this case, chelsea should be punished, so either fine them £10million or deduct points - thats the only punishment that will actually irritate chelsea and prevent them from doing something like this in the future.

i have to give credit to mourinho once again though - he saw an opportunity to unsettle arsenal (possibly for the entire season) - so he used the media to his full advantage. this whole thing was intricately planned, just as the barcelona tunnel (alleged) controversy was - he took away the shine from barca's win over chelsea by concentrating on the (innocuous) tunnel incident. if i am a player, this is what i wanna see my manager doing - battling the opposition in the only way he can; for sure it will make me work harder on the pitch, for my manager, knowing that he is prepared to drag his own reputation through the mud in order to make my job easier on the pitch.

btw, has this thread not gone waaaaaaaaaaaay off topic? this thread should be named, 'chelsea, man utd, arsenal and milan - a discussion'.

 

[JAzz]

I'd wager that whatever unrest these reports leaked by 'Chelsea' have had on Arsenal are superficial compared to the damage in the dressing room caused by Coles' actions. I'd hate to be his manager or team-mate at the moment, yet he is 'innocent'; apparently

No way is he innocent. Did you know he was booed by the Arsenal fans when he was warming up against Bolton? We thought this guy was a gooner through and through and many will never look at him the same way again, I thought the guy would be the next captain of Arsenal FFS He has really let us down here. If he played for some midtable club I could understand but to be ready to walk out over money, I am shocked.

yep. i like fast paced games where the score and outcome of the game can change in a seconds. thats what i mean by exciting.

when milan scored against man utd 1-0, in the 2nd leg i turned over completely to the chelsea game cuz i was confident that no more goals would be scored in that game and we had a result. in contrast, chelsea vs barca - if u stopped watching for even 5 mins, you couldve missed a goal or 2. it was compelling stuff. for a chelsea fan, that mustve been their best game of the season!!! barca vs chelsea will be remember for years to come. milan vs man utd will not be remembered. thats the difference.

another great game was arsenal vs man utd (earlier this year). chelsea vs arsenal was fantastic too.

it surprises me that jazz likes milan, given that arsenal play such entertaining, cavalier football which is the complete opposite to milan.

I love watching them, must admit since I was young and first saw George Weah play for them I have had a soft spot for them but just watching them is so interesting. Not any gung ho attacking, they don't defend by puttig 10 men behind the ball and throwing themselves at the ball. The way they control the game, the way they just probe away and just how bloody organised they are. The team that Man utd put out against them imo would roll over most teams in Europe but Man utd had only the giggs shot hit the post and nothing else on target. It has been a long time since I have seen a team stifle man utd like that.

The more I watch serie a the more interesting it gets, just such a contrast to our gung ho approach but so much more effective imo. Only trully great attacking sides are an exception to the rule but organised teams enjoy a lot success compared to the gung ho teams. Only Brazil and R.Madrid are exceptions, however the attacking players they possess are just crazy and they are able to impose their skills onto defensive sides and crack them. If you look at Milan they play such organised football and there is so much guile in their play, main reason for that guile imo is Pirlo. That guy is superb player, has every pass in the book and does he ever misplace a pass? I hope our very own Fabregas becomes a player like him as them two along with Xavi are in a similar mould

for chelsea, fines mean nothing. i personally think that each individual circumstance should be judged on its own merits. in this case, chelsea should be punished, so either fine them £10million or deduct points - thats the only punishment that will actually irritate chelsea and prevent them from doing something like this in the future.

i have to give credit to mourinho once again though - he saw an opportunity to unsettle arsenal (possibly for the entire season) - so he used the media to his full advantage. this whole thing was intricately planned, just as the barcelona tunnel (alleged) controversy was - he took away the shine from barca's win over chelsea by concentrating on the (innocuous) tunnel incident. if i am a player, this is what i wanna see my manager doing - battling the opposition in the only way he can; for sure it will make me work harder on the pitch, for my manager, knowing that he is prepared to drag his own reputation through the mud in order to make my job easier on the pitch.

btw, has this thread not gone waaaaaaaaaaaay off topic? this thread should be named, 'chelsea, man utd, arsenal and milan - a discussion'.

I agree but if they dock points Chelsea will ask why others clubs didn't have points deducted.

Agree with your Mourinho comments, the guy is so canny when it comes to the press. He really does make fools of them and uses them to really get an advantage to his team. Two times he has come out and complained about refereeing, in Europe and in England. The very next european and english match his team got a soft decision. Is this coincidence? He gets the other teams to lose focus and credit to him it has worked. Notice how a few times their players have handled the ball in the area, been looking away from the ball and not conceded a penalty? Someone was telling me that at Porto he used to tell his players to do the same, it is a tactic widely used in Europe. Not very nice but it works and he has got away with it so you have to say he has been very clever here. If it was my team tbh I wouldn't care....

 

[sunama]

If he [cole] played for some midtable club I could understand but to be ready to walk out over money, I am shocked.

so if another company came and head hunted you and said, "jazz, we think you are great. we think your current employers are under paying you for your good work. if you join our company you will receive an immediate 30% pay increase over what you are currently getting paid".

we await your response.

what would your response be jazz?

 

[BoomAM]

like wenger said, everybody thinks they have the most beautiful wife at home.

boomam is looking through rose-tinted spectacles me thinks.



ps. just made a quick check to see what the score was with ac milan over the weekend (13th march): 1-0. do milan actually win a game by more than 1 goal, ever?

if u cant go to sleep, dont count sheep - just watch milan play.

So youve never watched more than 1 or 2 Milan games per season then?
Milan dont play like a normal Italian team. If you watched them week in week out then yes you could probably comment, but as you dont then you cant. So dont.
Ive never claimed that Milan are the be-all-and-end-all of entertaining football. Ive said that they play entertaining football.
People, especially the English, just think that SeriaA is just a boring league, when most of England havnt even seen enough SeriaA matches to comment!