Ronaldinho says - no English team will go through
- Thread starter Ex-RoNiN
- Start date
in another thread, i posted up a comparison of the achievements of arsenal and man utd, over the last few years. man utd outperformed arsenal by big margin over the last few years.
as far as this year is concerned. arsenal are getting outperformed in europe by chelsea and liverpool by 1 stage...so far. if chelsea win the CL, then for sure they will have outperformed arsenal by a very large margin this year.
whichever way you look at it, other teams outperform arsenal in europe most of the time.
in europe all teams are expected to up their game (in comparison to how they perform domestically). the successful teams do this. arsenal, hardly ever up their game. it seems they have 3 gears. domestically, they play in 2nd and 3rd most of the time. and in europe, they play in exactly the same gears. i said this once and i will say it again, if arsenal wanna improve in europe, they will have to have a complete overhaul in management and playing personnel. i dont believe arsene wenger is capable of inspiring/selecting any team that is capable of getting into the final of a CL competition. (had mourinho took over at arsenal this year, i think arsenal would still be in the CL competition - i think arsenal have a better first 11 than chelsea). domestically though, arsene wenger is the best manager that arsenal could hope for. i just feel that arsenal dont feel they are a club that deserve to win the CL - this goes from the board of directors, through to the manager/coaches, right down to the players. even vierra (i can never remember how to spell this guy's name) - arsenal's talisman, wanted to leave for madrid last season to seek european success. roy keane would never do this, because he believes strongly in his club/manager/fellow players.
as far as this year is concerned. arsenal are getting outperformed in europe by chelsea and liverpool by 1 stage...so far. if chelsea win the CL, then for sure they will have outperformed arsenal by a very large margin this year.
whichever way you look at it, other teams outperform arsenal in europe most of the time.
in europe all teams are expected to up their game (in comparison to how they perform domestically). the successful teams do this. arsenal, hardly ever up their game. it seems they have 3 gears. domestically, they play in 2nd and 3rd most of the time. and in europe, they play in exactly the same gears. i said this once and i will say it again, if arsenal wanna improve in europe, they will have to have a complete overhaul in management and playing personnel. i dont believe arsene wenger is capable of inspiring/selecting any team that is capable of getting into the final of a CL competition. (had mourinho took over at arsenal this year, i think arsenal would still be in the CL competition - i think arsenal have a better first 11 than chelsea). domestically though, arsene wenger is the best manager that arsenal could hope for. i just feel that arsenal dont feel they are a club that deserve to win the CL - this goes from the board of directors, through to the manager/coaches, right down to the players. even vierra (i can never remember how to spell this guy's name) - arsenal's talisman, wanted to leave for madrid last season to seek european success. roy keane would never do this, because he believes strongly in his club/manager/fellow players.
Soldato
Dude. Im not american.sunama said:
Some of Milans players just didnt look like they were trying that hard. Ive seen a lot of Milan games, and have seen them player a lot harder than they did against United.
Soldato
Thats because Milan dont need to score 4 goals to seal a win. We can do it with 1. Because we have confidence in our defence. As for not being able to score 4 goals against good opposition. We did it last season. We do it this season in the league. Lest you forget that SeriaA is a VERY hard league to score in. So scoring more than 2 is a hell of an achievement.sunama said:
Look at it this way. We played Barca twice, you played Barca twice. Barca have arguably one of the best attacks in europe.
We stopped all of them for almost 180mins from scoring at all. Because we have a good defence. They scored 4 against you in two legs. So how exactely is your defence "better" than Milans?
The way your putting your argument across, most people would mistake you for a die-hard Chelsea fan.
Im not degrading Chelsea at all. I want them to win the league, and to beat Barca. And i admit, that they are a good side.
But they arnt as all conquering as some people make out. They`re good. But not that good. Just because they have a good manager and are doing well does not in anyway make them a wonder team.
Look at it this way. Josè likes to play a tactical game. Its worked well in the PL because no other team uses extensive tactics. In SeriaA its common place. I`d go as far to say that if Chelsea played Milan OR Juve, that they would have a v.hard time. I`d even say that the cross city rivals would give Chelsea a hard time.
sunama said:
Pegging back a lead against an Arsenal team that has lost the plot is a little different to pegging back a lead against a bloody good Juve side.
His route to the final after Man utd, Lyon, Deportivo and Monaco. Well done to Mourinho......
There is too much bias for the English sides, bottom line is they have been pathetic in Europe compared to others.
Now hold on a minute here, you can't compare one teams record in Italy to ones here. The teams here are poor in comparison to those abroad, apart from the top 3 the rest are pretty average. Now lets look at both sides CL record so far. Milan (scored: 12, conceded: 2). Now Chelsea (scored: 16, conceded: 7). As we can see Milan have a better defense and Chelsea have the edge in attack (mainly due to the last Barca game). The 2 goals Milan conceded were against Barca and they were both top quality goals. Milan don't need to score 4 goals, they can hang onto 1 goal leads without putting 10 men behind the ball hence why I think defensively they are better.
maby66 said:
Oh really, tell me what other clubs have done at the highest level in Europe over the last 5 years?
Also you haven't won any major prizes yet, when you do then you might get some credit for it.
sunama said:
First is everything, 2nd is nowhere. Getting a round or two further than us is no major achievement. Man utd have time and time again come unstuck in the crunch knock out games against the top sides. You have won ONE knock out tie since 1999 which is the same as us. My team has been rubbish in Europe, I'm not denying it but getting to the QFs year after year and getting knocked out is nothing to be proud of.
In Europe you need a lot of luck and a lot of breaks to go in your favour, we haven't had many and our squad has always been weak so we haven't coped in Europe. Look at the teams who have done well and the kind of money they have spent getting where they have.
Man of Honour
sunama, I have a spare ticket for Chelsea v WBA on Tuesday, come home Brother, it is time
Permabanned
By Super Pippo I assume your referring to Inzaghi? The guy's who's been injured for a year and is going to magically return to form ASAP. OK.
Shevshenko, great player - inconsistant? Maybe he just doesn't show up for the big games.
A neutral's view is always better than one from someones who's directly related to the clubs players - I support Stoke City.. I should know all about being neutral
Associate
Jazz - I really think your problems with your own teams performance is making you take a quite unrealistic stance on anything that doesnt conform to your world view.
Because Arsenal can't do it (at the moment) doesn't mean you have to denigrate other teams past performance or possible acheivements - your quote
"Also you haven't won any major prizes yet, when you do then you might get some credit for it" reeks of jealousy/bitterness.
I don't think you are making very objective statements at this time.
Arsenal losing the plot?
So because you have not won every single game (which is almost the only way you could better a 49 match unbeaten run) you're saying you've lost the plot? You don't give your team or your manager (or Chelsea for that matter) very much credit there.
I don't think Arsenal have "lost the plot".
I don't think Manchester United have "lost the plot".
Simply, Chelsea have (this season) moved the bar higher.
Potentially setting a record for goals conceded, having a substantially superior goal difference (especially given the lack lustre nature of the start of the season) and having been beaten only once in the premiership all season doesnt automaticlly equate with all other teams self destructing (which you seem to be alluding to).
What it means is that Chelsea have been better than the opposition in the race for the title.
PS - I might have to C&P the "first is everything, second is nowhere" quote for the next time you say that Chelsea have won by being boring/negative/ten men behind the ball etc
Because Arsenal can't do it (at the moment) doesn't mean you have to denigrate other teams past performance or possible acheivements - your quote
"Also you haven't won any major prizes yet, when you do then you might get some credit for it" reeks of jealousy/bitterness.
I don't think you are making very objective statements at this time.
Arsenal losing the plot?
So because you have not won every single game (which is almost the only way you could better a 49 match unbeaten run) you're saying you've lost the plot? You don't give your team or your manager (or Chelsea for that matter) very much credit there.
I don't think Arsenal have "lost the plot".
I don't think Manchester United have "lost the plot".
Simply, Chelsea have (this season) moved the bar higher.
Potentially setting a record for goals conceded, having a substantially superior goal difference (especially given the lack lustre nature of the start of the season) and having been beaten only once in the premiership all season doesnt automaticlly equate with all other teams self destructing (which you seem to be alluding to).
What it means is that Chelsea have been better than the opposition in the race for the title.
PS - I might have to C&P the "first is everything, second is nowhere" quote for the next time you say that Chelsea have won by being boring/negative/ten men behind the ball etc
Soldato
First. Facts before postage.SteveH said:
Hes been out for 3 months according to the Uefa website.
By the time that the next set of CL games come around, he`ll probably be near full fitness.
Inconsistant? Are you having a laugh. If he was inconsistant then he wouldnt be rated at all would he?
Maybe true. But youve admitted to supporting stoke, and as a general rule of thumb, stoke fans are more fickle with the truth that Bush.A neutral's view is always better than one from someones who's directly related to the clubs players - I support Stoke City.. I should know all about being neutral
Soldato
Jazz said:
Celtic scored against Milan as well
maby66 said:Jazz - I really think your problems with your own teams performance is making you take a quite unrealistic stance on anything that doesnt conform to your world view.
Because Arsenal can't do it (at the moment) doesn't mean you have to denigrate other teams past performance or possible acheivements - your quote
"Also you haven't won any major prizes yet, when you do then you might get some credit for it" reeks of jealousy/bitterness.
I don't think you are making very objective statements at this time.
Arsenal losing the plot?
So because you have not won every single game (which is almost the only way you could better a 49 match unbeaten run) you're saying you've lost the plot? You don't give your team or your manager (or Chelsea for that matter) very much credit there.
I don't think Arsenal have "lost the plot".
I don't think Manchester United have "lost the plot".
Simply, Chelsea have (this season) moved the bar higher.
Potentially setting a record for goals conceded, having a substantially superior goal difference (especially given the lack lustre nature of the start of the season) and having been beaten only once in the premiership all season doesnt automaticlly equate with all other teams self destructing (which you seem to be alluding to).
What it means is that Chelsea have been better than the opposition in the race for the title.
PS - I might have to C&P the "first is everything, second is nowhere" quote for the next time you say that Chelsea have won by being boring/negative/ten men behind the ball etc
My world view lol. Apart from 99 no team in England has come close to winning the European cup, have to go way back into Liverpools haydays in the eighties to see the last team before man utd to win the european cup. That is pretty poor imo but I do think there is a valid reason for that, the style of this league imo.
Also don't twist my comments, you haven't won the PL or CL yet. You probably will win the PL though and when you do I'll be the first here to congratulate your lot when you do. Everyone called us unbeatable back in Oct and even in 2003 around Oct the same was said about us and both times we have gone on poor runs to concede the title.
Man utd started off very poorly and in the end have left themselves a mountain too high to climb. As for us after we lost to man utd we completely went off the boil. In the next 7 games (21 points) we picked up something like 10 which is very poor for our standards and allowed Chelsea to first of get infront but also build up a healthy lead. I do however feel that our lack of squad size is one of the main reasons though, we have picked up an unbelievable amount of injuries to key players. Haven't had our proper first team out for even one game which highlights our problem.
I've never said Chelsea are a bad team on the pitch, but I've always said I don't like how they go about their business off the pitch.
davestar_delux said:Celtic scored against Milan as well
You're right they did, my apologies
Man of Honour
5 years or so excluded from European competitions go a long way towards that statistic too don't forget. That's 5 years in the learning curve of European football to make up tooJazz said:
Soldato
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Exactly, as before the English teams were the best & everyone else was playing catch up to our standards. But after the ban the English clubs fell behind its european conter-parts, and as we started to to compete in europe once again, the flux of foreign players flooded into the English clubs and now most of the top clubs don't even play with any home grown players. This will of course is bad for the National team in the long run, and we should now restrict every club to only play 3 or 4 foreign player in one game so the English players will have more experiance playing at the top level, which will greatly improve our National team
JohnnyG said:5 years or so excluded from European competitions go a long way towards that statistic too don't forget. That's 5 years in the learning curve of European football to make up too
Exactly, as before the English teams were the best & everyone else was playing catch up to our standards. But after the ban the English clubs fell behind its european conter-parts, and as we started to to compete in europe once again, the flux of foreign players flooded into the English clubs and now most of the top clubs don't even play with any home grown players. This will of course is bad for the National team in the long run, and we should now restrict every club to only play 3 or 4 foreign player in one game so the English players will have more experiance playing at the top level, which will greatly improve our National team
sunama said:
Chelsea this season, afaik (first league meeting and first Carling Cup match)
As for whoever was claiming Shevchenko is inconsistent, maybe a glance at his goalscoring record in Serie A over the past 5 years would show otherwise. He's also scored over 30 goals in the Champions League, although he has less than Henry, who is also branded inconsistent, so that doesn't really prove much
JohnnyG said:sunama, I have a spare ticket for Chelsea v WBA on Tuesday, come home Brother, it is time
hehehe. im not about to switch sides. its just that there has been a lot of people saying in this thread about how ***** english sides are and how great european sides are. thats what braught me out of the woodwork. but now it seems that some chelsea supporters have arrived and are defending their team...finally.
i actually dislike chelsea heaps, cuz many of the people around me where i used to work were chelsea supporters. and they would make a huge thing about winning **** cups (ie. the league, fa and cup winners cups) that they were winning a few years back. the trophies that counted (premier league and CL) they could only dream of. this is what used to **** me off.
JohnnyG said:5 years or so excluded from European competitions go a long way towards that statistic too don't forget. That's 5 years in the learning curve of European football to make up too
I agree but the thing is English clubs have been in Europe for a good 15 years now IIRC and they still seem quite far off the top European side.
Yes and its been so long since we got let back into europe that hardly any of out players have missed out on much experience of it - heck Gary Neville holds the world record for most number of appearances in the champions league, unless Raul is still one ahead of him. If you look at many of the recent managers at top clubs - Mourinho, Wenger, Ranieri, Vialli, Gullitt, Robson, Houllier etc they also didn't miss out on much, many of them were managing or playing abroad in fact. Alex Ferguson, OK you could give him that one, but even then MU were let back into europe a year before all other english clubs - and don't forget they wouldn't have qualified for europe much in the late 80s anyway.
I'm not saying that those 5 years out of Europe didn't impact our game somewhat, but I sometimes I think we like to throw up a few too many excuses - at the end of the day, English teams by and large do not perform to the same level as our 'rival' leagues in Spain and Italy when it comes putting your medals on the table.
For me the real pain of missing out on late 80s european competition is because Liverpool were a real powerhouse at the time and who is to say they wouldn't have added to their tally of 4 european cups? Likewise Everton fans might feel their club missed out on a few glory nights.
Experience is often cited as important in Europe, tactically that may be true I guess. but I just think back to Ajax lifting the CL trophy 10 years ago. Their side had a couple of old pros like Blind, but many of the other names like Van der Saar, Reiziger, Bogarde, Overmars, Seedorf, Davids, Kluivert, Kanu, Litmanen etc hadn't really had that many years playing at a high level. Most people I think would more likely attribute their success more down to raw talent being well coached as a team from a young age.
I'm not saying that those 5 years out of Europe didn't impact our game somewhat, but I sometimes I think we like to throw up a few too many excuses - at the end of the day, English teams by and large do not perform to the same level as our 'rival' leagues in Spain and Italy when it comes putting your medals on the table.
For me the real pain of missing out on late 80s european competition is because Liverpool were a real powerhouse at the time and who is to say they wouldn't have added to their tally of 4 european cups? Likewise Everton fans might feel their club missed out on a few glory nights.
Experience is often cited as important in Europe, tactically that may be true I guess. but I just think back to Ajax lifting the CL trophy 10 years ago. Their side had a couple of old pros like Blind, but many of the other names like Van der Saar, Reiziger, Bogarde, Overmars, Seedorf, Davids, Kluivert, Kanu, Litmanen etc hadn't really had that many years playing at a high level. Most people I think would more likely attribute their success more down to raw talent being well coached as a team from a young age.
Associate
Well if I remember correctly then earlier this season Arsenal (your team??) were about 6points ahead of Chelsea so not only have Chelsea overturned this deficit but have added a 10 point lead on you, which is more that the lead Milan have over Juve. So unless you are saying Arsenal is a **** team you can't disagree no matter how blind/stubborn you are, that this overtaking was some feat by chelsea.Jazz said:
That was not a mistake by Collina - if you saw his position and Carvahlo's position there was never going to be a way where he could have seen the foul esp with all the players between them and also with carvahlo making sure the keepers body was between him and the ref.Jazz said:
Also how is Madrid technically good? they are good attacking but defensively lacking hence i would call them technically good in that respect.
Is that Arsenal you are talking about again? the good English side but very poor European side. Only made it once to CL quarters as far back as i can remember and the team to knock them out was Chelsea the team who can't seem to beat them in the premiership...hmmJazz said:
Great pointSunama said:
What exactly do you mean by their business off the pitch? I have noticed a lot of what is said in the press etc about off the pitch events are all anti Chelsea. 1 main example Frisk saying he's retiring due to threats from Chelsea fans - did those fans send their season tickets as well to prove to him they are the ones? Also being fined for the Blackburn fracas - that happened due to poor refereeing by a ref who allowed fouls to go unpunished all by 1 team hence tempers flaring up. Ok blame the clubs for the fights but what about the ref who didn't even give a free kick for that foul which left Robben out injured all this time.Jazz said:
People just don't like Chelsea and their achievement. They might say it is due to all the Russian money but they never liked Chelsea yrs ago when they were doing ok in the cup winners cup etc and were almost bankrupt.