Russian SU-24 - Shot Down by Turkey

Dis86 said:
Yes. The us confirmed they heard it. And were able to 'hear everything that was going on'.
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Which was what, though?

'Yes we heard contact attempts' does not mean 'we verify everything the Turkish ministry states'.

TBH I could barely make out the words from the audio that was replayed on the news this morning, and I wasn't doing 500mph in a fighter jet, I was concentrating solely on the TV and drinking my coffee.
 
leaskovski said:
Thats interesting, because the audio the Turks have released is **** poor.
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Have you ever heard ATC radio transmissions that have been recorded?
They often aren't the best in the world, and from what I heard of the Turkish release it was probably more understandable than many other such recordings.

I think depending on which part of the world you're in, and the ATC some are still using decades old recording equipment for the transmissions because it still works and is good enough for the purposes intended.
 
Werewolf said:
Have you ever heard ATC radio transmissions that have been recorded?
They often aren't the best in the world, and from what I heard of the Turkish release it was probably more understandable than many other such recordings.

I think depending on which part of the world you're in, and the ATC some are still using decades old recording equipment for the transmissions because it still works and is good enough for the purposes intended.
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Maybe this is why the Russians don't believe they heard a warning? Pilot was tuned in to guard, but couldn't actually understand what was being said.
 
Dis86 said:
Yes. The us confirmed they heard it. And were able to 'hear everything that was going on'.
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That isn't the same as 'Yes we categorically confirm the transmitted warnings were precisely as Turkey states'.

Besides which, the US would lie out of their arse if it suited them. An independent 3rd party stating they heard the transmission is a completely different matter however.
 
If there's any escalation to this, I can honestly see a number of NATO members saying: "it's either Turkey or us that has to leave NATO".

I doubt any of the Baltic state members want to be annihilated over some suicidal, rash actions by Turkey, yet the likes of the UK will end up in the middle of this.

I bet if you had a public vote of people in the UK in terms of being part of NATO and having a World War that Russia would end up with their backs to the wall and end up using Nukes, or leaving the alliance, I know where most of the votes would be going, existence vs. non-existence.
 
Or maybe simply this wasn't a commercial flight on auto pilot with very little to actually do apart from checking in with ATC from time to time and coming up to a landing. This was a military craft that may have been in continuous contact with command actively talking to each other about the mission at hand.

I really can't come up with a sensible reason for Turkey to all of a sudden attack a russian plane even if it did go over their border briefly. With on going attacks local to the area and everyone on earth knowing and most supporting the action it's mostly absurd to believe that would be anything but an effectively allied plane running missions against Isis linked targets.

My question is, were Turkey worried about what that Russian plane might see in that specific area. Isis oil tankers going over the border, maybe a group of Isis fighters, or Turkish people dropping off supplies to be sent to Isis in exchange for oil or something along those lines. A panicked attempt to prevent evidence being gathered potentially?

Maybe Isis have threatened Turkey with attacks unless Turkey show they aren't working with Russia directly, who knows. It was simply utterly absurd to attack any plane for a 17 second incursion under the current circumstances in/around Syria.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Or maybe simply this wasn't a commercial flight on auto pilot with very little to actually do apart from checking in with ATC from time to time and coming up to a landing. This was a military craft that may have been in continuous contact with command actively talking to each other about the mission at hand.
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Dunno about Russian configs but with dual crewed combat aircraft its usually the job of the 2nd crewman to extensively monitor communications as well as coming up with firing solutions, etc. and even during intensive action they'd be expected (and have the training) to keep up with that.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Maybe Isis have threatened Turkey with attacks unless Turkey show they aren't working with Russia directly, who knows. It was simply utterly absurd to attack any plane for a 17 second incursion under the current circumstances in/around Syria.
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You can't simply fly armed military aircraft into someone else's airspace, without any permission and expect everything to "just be ok" or brush it off with, "oh we weren't doing any harm"

If you fly armed military jets in places where they shouldn't be, for any length of time - expect consequences, Russia had been told not to do it, they ignore the warmings, and paid the price.
 
Werewolf said:
Have you ever heard ATC radio transmissions that have been recorded?
They often aren't the best in the world, and from what I heard of the Turkish release it was probably more understandable than many other such recordings.

I think depending on which part of the world you're in, and the ATC some are still using decades old recording equipment for the transmissions because it still works and is good enough for the purposes intended.
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I've worked on ATC Ground to Air Comms and it isn't the most amazing fidelity. I could never understand what was being said, but I've never met any operator who couldn't. I couldn't even understand it standing next to them, never mind listening to it over a speaker.

They never got any complaints from pilots either, from what I gathered.
 
George Hincapie said:
An independent 3rd party stating they heard the transmission is a completely different matter however.
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Try finding anyone within a thousand miles of the crash site who is truly independent :p

Screeeech said:
You can't simply fly armed military aircraft into someone else's airspace, without any permission and expect everything to "just be ok" or brush it off with, "oh we weren't doing any harm"

If you fly armed military jets in places where they shouldn't be, for any length of time - expect consequences, Russia had been told not to do it, they ignore the warmings, and paid the price.
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...the price which was provided by a country that routinely crosses borders of their neighbours, and says it isn't a reason to shoot down aircraft.
 
elmuzzy66. said:
Turkey is a big issue imo. They slowing but surely heading the Islamic route. Hope there's a coup soon, its only the army that's kept turkey secular.
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Erdogan himself is a religious conservatist. FFS they have a Directorate of Religious Affairs which only offers services to Sunnis!

I didn't realise anyone deemed it secular any more.
 
Gilly said:
...the price which was provided by a country that routinely crosses borders of their neighbours, and says it isn't a reason to shoot down aircraft.
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I'm not saying it's right or wrong, fair or unfair, but Turkey had been scrambling F16s for a while now, in response to Russians flying nearby and Russia knows it. For Russia to complain that they've been attacked without any warning, for any reason is just predictable and dumb imo.

They knew the risks, is all I'm saying.
 
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