Ryzen 3000 vs 4000

Vish Petrol · 19 Mar 2019 at 08:19

I've been waiting to upgrade my Ryzen [email protected], and was looking forward to upgrading it this year to one of the 3000 series. However from what I have read AM4 is supported until next year, which would mean that the 4000 series of cpus will be coming out and be supported by my x370 taichi. However I can't find any information on it. Will there be any worth while changes or should I just upgrade this year.

If its worth holding out until the 4000 series I could just get the 8 core 3000 series and just benefit from her higher clockspeeds and better IPC for the time being and wait for 4000, or go all out and get a 12/16 core.

From what I have read ryzen benefits from faster ram but does not allow the ram clockspeeds to go as high as intel based systems. Will this change with the new cpus, or is it a motherboard limitation? Would it be worth upgrading my motherboard as well? I currently have Gskill ripjaws V 3000mhz CL14 ram which is running at 3200mhz. I have not changed any of the settings other than bump up the clockspeed.

Beren · 19 Mar 2019 at 09:11

Afaik there is nothing yet on the 7nm+ process or ryzen 4000 or even if it will be the same socket.

chroniclard · 19 Mar 2019 at 09:14

Not going to find much info on the 4000 series when the 3000 series isnt even out yet.

Given you can sell on your 1700 for a few quid an upgrade to the 3000 series will more than likely be a decent upgrade.

Next gen Ryzen may or may not offer higher RAM speeds, will have to wait and see. Mines at 3466 on a 2700X.

pastymuncher · 19 Mar 2019 at 09:21

Don't get hung up on memory speeds. The faster the memory the slacker the timings so it's a case of diminishing returns the faster you go. The sweet spot with mine seems to be 3600mhz@C16 which is actually faster in just about everything than 3866mhz@C17. There is absolutely nothing wrong with 3000mhz and 3200mhz memory as long as the timings are decent. Let's say that 2400mhz is the standard speed and we all know that Ryzen loves faster memory which means that you already have much faster memory than standard so buying faster won't make as big a difference compared to what you already have over 2400mhz.

Are we not expecting Ryzen 4000 to be a refresh of 3000 just like 2000 was of 1000 and so keeping the same socket?

LePhuronn · 19 Mar 2019 at 12:04

Ryzen 4000 is just going to be a refresh of Ryzen 3000 as Zen 2 gets built on a refined 7nm+ process. There may be a few things added and improved, but I don't think "Zen 3" and "Zen2+" are the same thing.

As a result you will probably see a slight bump in clock speeds, slight tweak in power requirements and possibly a slight improvement in memory speed support, but I doubt it'll be anything significant enough over Ryzen 3000 to wait until 2020 for it.

The only thing I can see happening really is the I/O die might get shrunk to 12nm if some gains can be had, but given AMD are already using GloFo's 12nm for Ryzen 2000 and RX 590, if the Zen 2 I/O chip could have been built on 12nm I'd wager they would be doing so already.

Nutella33 · 19 Mar 2019 at 16:28

Basically what @pastymuncher said with RAM. Ryzens current easily obtained sweet spot is 3200 and tight timings, start hitting past 3600 and the required timings reduce its impact. I'm at 3466 C14 on a 1700x.

When it came out bioses were really immature and RAM was much harder to hit a stable 3200. not so much the case now. I'm in your position and seeing what the thermals are like on the 12+ core to decide my position, if they are crap ill just go 8.

Vish Petrol · 19 Mar 2019 at 17:39

Nutella33 said:
Basically what @pastymuncher said with RAM. Ryzens current easily obtained sweet spot is 3200 and tight timings, start hitting past 3600 and the required timings reduce its impact. I'm at 3466 C14 on a 1700x.

When it came out bioses were really immature and RAM was much harder to hit a stable 3200. not so much the case now. I'm in your position and seeing what the thermals are like on the 12+ core to decide my position, if they are crap ill just go 8.

What ram do you have?

CuriousTomCat · 19 Mar 2019 at 17:52

According to an AMD slide I saw 2 years ago, Ryzen 4000 will be a power efficiency update so not really worth waiting for.

BongoHunter · 19 Mar 2019 at 18:02

CuriousTomCat said:
According to an AMD slide I saw 2 years ago, Ryzen 4000 will be a power efficiency update so not really worth waiting for.

Makes sense to have the tick-tock model, 2000 series wasn't a big bump from 1000 series, 3000 series should provide a bigger bump than last series update, so 4000 might just be refinement like we saw with 2000.

4K8KW10 · 19 Mar 2019 at 20:09

LePhuronn said:
Ryzen 4000 is just going to be a refresh of Ryzen 3000 as Zen 2 gets built on a refined 7nm+ process. There may be a few things added and improved, but I don't think "Zen 3" and "Zen2+" are the same thing.

As a result you will probably see a slight bump in clock speeds, slight tweak in power requirements and possibly a slight improvement in memory speed support, but I doubt it'll be anything significant enough over Ryzen 3000 to wait until 2020 for it.

The only thing I can see happening really is the I/O die might get shrunk to 12nm if some gains can be had, but given AMD are already using GloFo's 12nm for Ryzen 2000 and RX 590, if the Zen 2 I/O chip could have been built on 12nm I'd wager they would be doing so already.

There is no such thing called Zen 2+, the next thing after Zen 2 will be Zen 3.

AMD’s CTO, Mark Papermaster, has said in an interview that the 7nm+ process node will be utilised to maximise efficiency within its Zen 3 CPUs, and will offer only “modest device performance opportunities”. While we know relatively little about the Zen 3 architecture, it is the first expected to utilise EUV in some capacity, and AMD is confident that the process is “on track” for launch sometime around 2020.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd-zen-3-7nm-cpu-architecture

And yes, it will be on the same AM4 socket.

LePhuronn · 19 Mar 2019 at 20:30

"Zen 2+" was nomenclature purely of my own creation given I thought the 7nm+ refinement was just that; a refinement of Zen 2. If the first 7nm+ production is jumping straight into a new arch that is Zen 3, rather then just a tweak, then it'll be interesting to see what comes with it.

theforce · 19 Mar 2019 at 23:56

Plan on upgrading in 2020. Skipping Zen 2 in hopes Zen 3 comes with DDR5.

Vish Petrol · 20 Mar 2019 at 03:17

theforce said:
Plan on upgrading in 2020. Skipping Zen 2 in hopes Zen 3 comes with DDR5.

From what I remember, it took a few years before ddr3 and ddr4 were able to reach speed and timings to pass the faster variants of the older generations of memory, so its probably not worth jumping onto ddr5 straight away as you'll likely have to upgrade the memory again if you don't want the CPU to be bottlenecked, especially with infinity fabric.

pastymuncher · 20 Mar 2019 at 09:23

theforce said:
Plan on upgrading in 2020. Skipping Zen 2 in hopes Zen 3 comes with DDR5.

If the 2020 release is indeed a refresh of the 3000 series that they are releasing this year and retaining AM4 then I can't see DDR5 coming along before 2021. Like above, DDR4 had abysmal speed and timings when it launched and took a while to "mature" so if DDR5 follows the same format then I wouldn't be jumping on that until it's well established.

4K8KW10 · 20 Mar 2019 at 10:09

Cadence expect DDR5-4400 to be the standard for DDR5 with DDR5-6400 coming later down the line.

Cadence's prototype had a CAS latency of 42 (No, not a typo).

https://www.techpowerup.com/243907/cadence-and-micron-demo-ddr5-4400-memory-module

^^^
Absolute waste of efforts.

Current DDR4-4266 has 19-19-19-39 timings https://www.overclockers.co.uk/g.sk...channel-kit-f4-4266c19d-16gtzr-my-10s-gs.html

If DDR5-4400 starts from 42-42-42-85 timings, it will be DOA.

Silent_Scone · 20 Mar 2019 at 12:02

4K8KW10 said:
https://www.techpowerup.com/243907/cadence-and-micron-demo-ddr5-4400-memory-module

^^^
Absolute waste of efforts.

Current DDR4-4266 has 19-19-19-39 timings https://www.overclockers.co.uk/g.sk...channel-kit-f4-4266c19d-16gtzr-my-10s-gs.html

If DDR5-4400 starts from 42-42-42-85 timings, it will be DOA.

Very crude post.

"Current DDR4-4266 has 19-19-39". Not even really a valid statement, is it? It's binned by GSKILL at these timings with sufficient guardband, it's not any kind of industry standard. JEDEC currently don't offer standards anywhere near those speeds. Moreover, they offer tCAS 17 bins at those frequencies already. Not only that, tCAS and other primary sets aren't the only important timing parameter. Frequency and timings are intrinsically related, it comes down to how close one is able to close in the subset spacing from what MB vendors are setting - and also what the CPU is capable of. If you calculate column access time correctly, you'll notice that for every tCAS jump you need a 266MHz frequency increase to reach the same access time. Not exactly a huge jump in frequency.

Nutella33 · 20 Mar 2019 at 12:57

Vish Petrol said:
What ram do you have?

F4-3200C14-8GTZR. 4 sticks on a Crosshair VI.

Vish Petrol · 20 Mar 2019 at 13:11

Nutella33 said:
F4-3200C14-8GTZR. 4 sticks on a Crosshair VI.

Ive got 2x8gb sticks of F4-3000C14D-16GVR. I was considering upgrading, but I only spent £120 on them 2 years ago, so I think i'll stick with them.

Nutella33 · 20 Mar 2019 at 13:27

Vish Petrol said:
Ive got 2x8gb sticks of F4-3000C14D-16GVR. I was considering upgrading, but I only spent £120 on them 2 years ago, so I think i'll stick with them.

Yeah, I wouldn't bother and two sticks is more ideal at the moment. I just went 4 because I got a good deal on them. 3000GVR are B die though so should be good for 3200 C14 easily. probably 3333 C14.

Vish Petrol · 20 Mar 2019 at 13:47

Nutella33 said:
Yeah, I wouldn't bother and two sticks is more ideal at the moment. I just went 4 because I got a good deal on them. 3000GVR are B die though so should be good for 3200 C14 easily. probably 3333 C14.

I increased the clocks to 3200 and it seems to be fine. I don't understand how to overclock ram so i've just left it at that.