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It is always far harder to get a significant pay rise at the same role than through promotion or changing employer. Even promotion rises tend to be smaller so is worth negotiating.

Moreover, experience is one thing but when a new candidate is hired there is always a ramp up period as they learn the ropes, and the more senior the position then generally the longer this takes to see maximal performance. Yet the employer has to pay the salary of someone just learning everything.

In my limited experience the more senior the less time you get. You're expected (within reason) to hit the ground running. Also in my limited experience the more senior and experienced people themselves want to set the tone and establish their authority almost immediately.

I think our most recent most senior hire, at their first dept meeting presented fairly detailed work agenda for the coming months.
 
I think both points are valid - senior hires are expected to hit the ground running, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are at max performance level. Typically you'd expect more senior folk to have a broader, more holistic strategic remit and hence the more they learn about the status quo, the more effectively they can leverage the experience and critical thinking they are bringing from elsewhere. That can take a while, due to the breadth of their remit (compared to perhaps someone in a more junior position that can be relatively blinkered in terms of their immediate area of responsibility).

Another way of putting it could be that more senior hires have a higher base level of expectation as to their performance, but they also have a higher potential ceiling that they are capable of, which may take some time to arrive at.

Personally, I've described myself as having something of an S-curve (plotting effectiveness vs time in position) whereby in perhaps the first couple of months I might actually be slightly below the line of someone progressing with more of a logarithmic curve that can come in and immediately shake things up, and then as I gain more knowledge, and grow my network I become disproportionally more effective compared to the 'average' person. Obviously, everyone will start to plateau eventually on that curve. I think it's important to be self-reflective of this sort of thing so you can actively address weaknesses / leverage strengths.
 
Consider this in the context of a new hire, vs a existing member (with experience) of staff asked to cover a higher position. To then argue they don't have experience to deny them a promotion, or salary bump seems jarring . If they have to prove them selves with a probationary period fair enough. Not everyone can make the jump to the next level.

I'm over simplifying it for sure.
 
If you're going in at a senior level one of the key questions to ask at interview would be why is the role open ? I'd want to know why they're looking externally as opposed to promoting and/or training someone internal. Legacy knowledge and "how the organisation works" are hugely important.
 
Consider this in the context of a new hire, vs a existing member (with experience) of staff asked to cover a higher position. To then argue they don't have experience to deny them a promotion, or salary bump seems jarring . If they have to prove them selves with a probationary period fair enough. Not everyone can make the jump to the next level.

I'm over simplifying it for sure.
I think what's needed in cases where people take on more senior internal roles and need to 'prove themselves' is more options to do on an 'interim' basis whereby if they successfully complete the 'probation' they have a guaranteed salary increase and the permanent post. What sometimes seems to happen when people are making a step up / acting up is they get shafted by vague promises and never really achieve he correct increment. So it needs to be established in writing on the basis of well, if they pass probation then by definition they must be good enough for the role, and hence deserve the money. The one challenge with this of course is you'll typically need to backfill that individual, and then if they fail in the new role, they don't really have a position to come back to. The ideal scenario is where they can go and do the new role for X amount of time and then return if it doesn't work out, this probably works best when they are doing a role with a high number of FTE so spots will become available (maybe like a team leader in an org with several team leader positions of that type).
 
If you're going in at a senior level one of the key questions to ask at interview would be why is the role open ? I'd want to know why they're looking externally as opposed to promoting and/or training someone internal. Legacy knowledge and "how the organisation works" are hugely important.

In our place certain amount IMO ageism. They are happy to throw experience under the bus, to get younger people.
And my that I mean we've ended up with teams, and senior staff with no domain knowledge, literally no knowledge of a complex business area.

I this point I realise its normal enough.
 
In our place certain amount IMO ageism. They are happy to throw experience under the bus, to get younger people.
And my that I mean we've ended up with teams, and senior staff with no domain knowledge, literally no knowledge of a complex business area.

I this point I realise its normal enough.
but equally, years spent in the job doesn't guarantee that there is valuable experience or that experience is still pertinent or is more valuable than someone with a new take. Unfortunately many senior people rest of their laurels and do pretty minimal effort to push themselves, and many just do then same work year after year. Quality of experience is far more important than quantity, and the experience has to be relevant which can be difficult in rapidly changing industries, and the motivation to gain new experience has to be there.

There are plenty of younger people that have high quality, highly relevant experience and are super motivated to learn, to go above and beyond the minimum to keep their job and push themselves up the career ladder
 
You're arguing two sides of the same coin.

Business experience and domain knowledge takes time to acquire for new hires. Unless they already have it. In which case they don't.

Existing staff especially older ones also need the same time, but their existing more relevant experience in the exact business doesn't count for some reason.

That double standard is clearly ageist. What's more your saying getting an internal promotion is much harder for existing staff, than new people. It's practically telling people to leave to get promoted.
 
In our place certain amount IMO ageism. They are happy to throw experience under the bus, to get younger people.
And my that I mean we've ended up with teams, and senior staff with no domain knowledge, literally no knowledge of a complex business area.

I this point I realise its normal enough.

In my place we seem to almost always take on new recruits that are at least 30 years old and under 50, and male. I'm not sure how much of it is just that applicants tend to be in that age range for IT roles. Many of them tend to be Indian origin as we get a lot of contractors provided by our partner as well.
I do feel like once I hit 50 it will be harder to move jobs in IT. There is a certain amount of passive ageism after 50 where people expect only managers in that age range. For technical guys like me - I don't like managing - it is a concern once I get there.
Sometimes I hate working in IT/tech companies in terms of the lack of (hot) women. The occasional gem pops up, but there's just so much testosterone in the office. Another perk of wfh to get away from that.
 
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Sometimes I hate working in IT/tech companies in terms of the lack of (hot) women. The occasional gem pops up, but there's just so much testosterone in the office. Another perk of wfh to get away from that.

You need to work in HR if you want that :D

We did try to recruit a woman for our team in Greece. It was looking for her good, she answered my technical questions. Had good Azure experience.

Made her an offer, we got the "Sorry, I have changed my mind"
 
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You need to work in HR if you want that :D

We did try to recruit a woman for our team in Greece. It was looking for her good, she answered my technical questions. Had good Azure experience.

Made her an offer, we got the "Sorry, I have changed my mind"

Common for men also. Unless your place only gets that from women? :)
 
In my place we seem to almost always take on new recruits that are at least 30 years old and under 50, and male. I'm not sure how much of it is just that applicants tend to be in that age range for IT roles. Many of them tend to be Indian origin as we get a lot of contractors provided by our partner as well.
I do feel like once I hit 50 it will be harder to move jobs in IT. There is a certain amount of passive ageism after 50 where people expect only managers in that age range. For technical guys like me - I don't like managing - it is a concern once I get there.
Sometimes I hate working in IT/tech companies in terms of the lack of (hot) women. The occasional gem pops up, but there's just so much testosterone in the office. Another perk of wfh to get away from that.

Ours is similar.

Except we've a lot more women. About a 40% women in IT.
I just looked at recent promotions and new hires list across the rest of the company. About 60-70% new hires women, promotions 100% women.

I can see my days are numbered.
 
You need to work in HR if you want that :D

We did try to recruit a woman for our team in Greece. It was looking for her good, she answered my technical questions. Had good Azure experience.

Made her an offer, we got the "Sorry, I have changed my mind"

I've not experienced that so much with HR. Quite the opposite! I have worked with attractive women in legal teams and finance.
Tbh just having more women in general would be good. Our place has a policy to have a certain percentage of women and BAME* in certain roles. Or whatever it is called now. We also love the whole LGBTQ+ thing and have had training on things like not calling the toilets "the gents" etc. Sponsorship programs for BAME as well.
Basically if you are a white, straight, non religious, traditional, meat eating Englishman, you don't have anything going for you frankly. ;)
 
I've not experienced that so much with HR. Quite the opposite! I have worked with attractive women in legal teams and finance.
Tbh just having more women in general would be good. Our place has a policy to have a certain percentage of women and BAME* in certain roles. Or whatever it is called now. We also love the whole LGBTQ+ thing and have had training on things like not calling the toilets "the gents" etc. Sponsorship programs for BAME as well.
Basically if you are a white, straight, non religious, traditional, meat eating Englishman, you don't have anything going for you frankly. ;)

Being ethnic myself anything what pushes BAME or LGBTQ+ in an work environment I avoid. I dont have anything against them but hiring people just based on their traits and not their skillset I don't agree with. Same with pay, pay people based on their skillset and what they can bring to the company. Not gender, sexuality or race.

But slight funny story, the last company I worked for celebrated and boasted their companies international workforce was over 60% women. I was like "cool" then the CEO announced on stage "Due to staff demand! We have 20% discount on all items from Love Honey!" If people don't know what Love Honey is, don't look it up at work :D

I honest thought it was a joke but the company was purchased by the same umbrella company who owns Love Honey. Having a workforce mostly made up of women, it was them who pushed for the discounts from Love Honey......who knew!?!?!
 
Recruiter today: job for u m8 competitive salary lol"

I asked what it was, he said he'd come back to me after he's spoken to the client, so he didn't even know himself.

Two hours later: "hi m8 recruiter again money's £20k less than ur on lol"

Me: "ye lol indeed"

Competitive my ass. I'm sure @MrRockliffe would've accepted the interview and wasted everyone's time only to find out at the last step that they're taking the mick, but I like to know beforehand when I'm being screwed.
 
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Recruiter today: job for u m8 competitive salary lol"

I asked what it was, he said he'd come back to me after he's spoken to the client, so he didn't even know himself.

Two hours later: "hi m8 recruiter again money's £20k less than ur on lol"

Me: "ye lol indeed"

Competitive my ass. I'm sure @MrRockliffe would've accepted the interview and wasted everyone's time only to find out at the last step that they're taking the mick, but I like to know beforehand when I'm being screwed.

I'm surprised you didn't get my question "Are you willing to take a paycut?"

The cheeky.......... :mad:
 
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Recruiter today: job for u m8 competitive salary lol"

I asked what it was, he said he'd come back to me after he's spoken to the client, so he didn't even know himself.

Two hours later: "hi m8 recruiter again money's £20k less than ur on lol"

While recruiters can be annoying, they’re very useful for cutting through the BS on salaries.
 
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