Salary of tube and train drivers - why so high?

Freefaller · 6 Feb 2017 at 13:39

Russinating said:
Some cost but most likely disruption of closing a tube station for a long and sustained period of time (rather than odd night/evening maintenance works). Every new station I've ever been to all over the world uses full-height glass barriers.

Yup. Crossrail will have PEDs (platform edge doors).

The cost is vast. The disruption fairly substantial.

It would take years, and they would have to close stations for long periods of times. Can you imagine the chaos? It's already a nightmare when a station is closed for a few months let alone 6+.

It would be great though. The other issue is more about throwing yourself in front of a train when the overground goes "outside" or overground - as it is easier to trespass there.

Freefaller · 6 Feb 2017 at 13:41

mrbios said:
Don't think it really matters....it's probably the easiest form of transport to automate so they'll all probably be out of the job within a decade or two.

There is a huge amount of work going into this. The unions will cause problems claiming 'passenger safety'.

But as you say, another decade or so and there will be automation - that is the aspiration of the TOCs.

Hawkwind1879 · 6 Feb 2017 at 13:50

Freefaller said:
There is a huge amount of work going into this. The unions will cause problems claiming 'passenger safety'.

But as you say, another decade or so and there will be automation - that is the aspiration of the TOCs.

Not likely for the vast majority of routes, there is just no way automation could cope if something goes wrong. Maybe 60 years or so but even then there will be people monitoring it.

Russinating · 6 Feb 2017 at 13:50

Freefaller said:
The cost is vast.

Oh I'm sure, but given standard rail costs (£70bn for HS2, £20-30bn for Crossrail 2) it's still a drop

.

Hawkwind1879 · 6 Feb 2017 at 13:56

Also I'm pretry sure drivers pay is not linked in any way to risk of suicides

Freefaller · 6 Feb 2017 at 13:56

Hawkwind1879 said:
Not likely for the vast majority of routes, there is just no way automation could cope if something goes wrong. Maybe 60 years or so but even then there will be people monitoring it.

Of course you still need remote monitoring, and the human interface, but there is a massive drive for automation - it will happen. It is inevitable, but also necessary.

Russinating said:
Oh I'm sure, but given standard rail costs (£70bn for HS2, £20-30bn for Crossrail 2) it's still a drop .

£14.8bn for Crossrail

I agree probably worth it, but bear in mind some of the infrastructure is in some parts over a century old it will require quite a lot of disruption to integrate it.

Furthermore, for them there are more immediate bits of work that is in the pipeline - for example the Bank improvement works (which will make Bank SOOO much better), northern line extension, tube cooling projects and so on.

I agree though it should be in the pipeline.

TS7 · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:07

Hawkwind1879 said:
Not likely for the vast majority of routes, there is just no way automation could cope if something goes wrong. Maybe 60 years or so but even then there will be people monitoring it.

60 years? lol

It's coming much sooner than that. There's already countries where driverless trains run very efficiently, Dubai is an example. Granted the routes are very simple in comparison to the London Underground but it's frankly not some space age futuristic thing that will take 60 years.

Arazi · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:11

pastymuncher said:
It's not the same as other jobs though. As a driver they are responsible for hundreds of lives. They screw up and things can go horribly wrong very quickly. They need 100% attention all of the time, have to learn the route such as where every signal is, where every speed change is, where every change in gradient is. They cannot afford to be distracted and I think they get a very deserving salary.

BigT said:
I know a train driver. From one week to the next he doesn't know if he's going to have to get up at 04:00am to work a Saturday. The training was arduous, there's no regularity to it with the shifts, you're often unpopular with commuters and he bears the weight of people's safety on his shoulders every time he gets in the seat. I'm not sure I'd want all that and would expect it to be reasonably well paid.

A bus driver has more to do and more to contend with than a tube\train driver.

I have seen some bus driver jobs advertised at £8.00 ph locally, that is disgraceful.

Hawkwind1879 · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:13

TS7 said:
60 years? lol

It's coming much sooner than that. There's already countries where driverless trains run very efficiently, Dubai is an example. Granted the routes are very simple in comparison to the London Underground but it's frankly not some space age futuristic thing that will take 60 years.

I don't know about the London Underground sorry I'm talking about the main line rail network. 60 years is even being optimistic. Our rail network is pretty unique so I wouldn't worry about if it happens in other countries or not, thankfully

Tone1979 · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:13

Kuros said:
I don't know much about trains, but I know for example the Knowledge takes one hell of a lot of planning, revision and learning and I don't hear Taxi drivers making 60K a year in london.

You're kidding, right?

Hawkwind1879 · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:15

Arazi said:
A bus driver has more to do and more to contend with than a tube\train driver.

I have seen some bus driver jobs advertised at £8.00 ph locally, that is disgraceful.

Wow I think the big problem here is people do not know what a train driver does or has to contend with. And i'm sorry but his responsibility is reflected in the pay. I had no idea before joining the railway either

Freefaller · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:19

Hawkwind1879 said:
I don't know about the London Underground sorry I'm talking about the main line rail network. 60 years is even being optimistic. Our rail network is pretty unique so I wouldn't worry about if it happens in other countries or not, thankfully

Unfortunately our infrastructure / transport industry is still playing catch up, and it is a huge leviathan of an industry to change the mindset of. It is also so entrenched in it's ways (the militant unions don't help) we are waiting for the younger generations to make it to more senior positions of influence to help open the eyes of the industry to the possibilities that exist out there.

That said, there is a drive for automation, remote condition monitoring and better use of sensors and smart technologies, even now. It will happen. It will probably take an inordinate amount of time compare to how long it SHOULD take... but the appetite is growing, certainly for TOCs, infrastructure suppliers, and maintainers. They're building in these requirements in contracts at point of procurement - so it's starting to have a shift. There won't be a sudden paradigm shift in attitudes/behaviours but that is the aspiration!

Innovate or die.

Arazi · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:23

Hawkwind1879 said:
Some of the comments here have to be a joke surely

Train drivers absolutely deserve their pay, they go through months and months of training and constant monitoring throughout their career.

They get paid so much for their knowledge of the route and traction and I'm afraid it is a highly specialised role that not everyone can do (I wish I could =p)

Rubbish

Hawkwind1879 · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:24

I can see how it can help and there is a place for it here and there, but in the end you would still need a driver in the cab, signaller to monitor the work station, but with the risk that they might loose concentration because it's so dull monitoring automation, so why bother?

Basher · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:25

Hawkwind1879 said:
Wow I think the big problem here is people do not know what a train driver does or has to contend with. And i'm sorry but his responsibility is reflected in the pay. I had no idea before joining the railway either

I'm not sure this argument stacks up. Is a tube driver responsible for life in the same way a bus driver is? Why is that reflected in the tube drivers pay more so than the bus driver?

Unions, perhaps?

Basher · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:27

Hawkwind1879 said:
I can see how it can help and there is a place for it here and there, but in the end you would still need a driver in the cab, signaller to monitor the work station, but with the risk that they might loose concentration because it's so dull monitoring automation, so why bother?

You're thinking with a bit of a closed mindset with todays challenges limiting your view.

We WILL have automated trains. We won't need a driver in the cab, just like we won't need a driver in our cars. There are big legislative and practical challenges to overcome, but it will happen.

wordy · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:28

nitram100 said:
So kind of like my job as a Nurse but double the pay. Cry me a ******* river.

Don't be mad that they are paid more than you, be mad you are paid less then them.

JaWalks · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:28

Train drivers are paid what they are worth as that's how capitalism works.

Basher · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:30

JaWalks said:
Train drivers are paid what they are worth as that's how capitalism works.

Isn't capitalism also about finding the best possible person for the role at the best rate, irrespective of if they already work for the company?

Also in your view, no one anywhere is either under or overpayed?

Freefaller · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:34

Hawkwind1879 said:
I can see how it can help and there is a place for it here and there, but in the end you would still need a driver in the cab, signaller to monitor the work station, but with the risk that they might loose concentration because it's so dull monitoring automation, so why bother?

You're not really being visionary enough. You don't need a driver or a signaller. You should aspire to add this level of automation. You will still need driver/signallers and experts to advise on how to control the automation - but the future is automation. A lot of work is going towards it. You might not remove ALL drivers, but you can certainly reduce the number, and move them to other roles that aid customers or the operation.

They've sent automated rovers to Mars - sure there are no people in danger at that point, but if they can do that, we can create an automated system for trains - perhaps not immediately but in due course.

The only issues we come across is the human error in the programming of the sensors/software. However this will get better in time.

The advantage of automation on rail, is that the routes are fixed, unlike cars that are free to roam/drive around freely, so there's a great opportunity.

The only people against automation are drivers and unions.