Salary of tube and train drivers - why so high?

joeyjojo · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:35

Roar87 said:
Our country is a joke. This is what happens when you take competition out of a market.

Typical troll stuff. Are you referring to the National Rail system or TfL? Nonsense either way.

If you hadn't noticed, the national system was privatised (1994-97) and works on franchises now. To get good "competition" they aim for at least three bids but in recent years they've failed to get even those. Apparently the private sector is not willing to run train services - not juicy enough. The Public Accounts Committee warned about it a year ago:

'Lack of interest' in running rail franchises, MPs warn

What do we have to show for it? Some of the most expensive fares in Europe. Meanwhile Germany and France have kept their public systems, DB and SNCF, and they seem to work much better.

TfL by contrast was created in 2000 as a 'devolved' (Greater London) government scheme, and has been a pretty staggering success AFAIK.

Hawkwind1879 · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:41

Basher said:
I'm not sure this argument stacks up. Is a tube driver responsible for life in the same way a bus driver is? Why is that reflected in the tube drivers pay more so than the bus driver?

Unions, perhaps?

The railway is run differently to buses, I don't think it's a fair comparison. It's run to a stricter safety standard for one. It's more in common with the airlines.

I mean where would you stop, like one poster said taxis? Vans?

Glaucus · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:42

Freefaller said:
They've sent automated rovers to Mars .

they aren't really autonomous, there routes are picked by people and daily programs sent to them and they move extremely slowly. Oppotunity took 11 years to do a marathon.

however i do agree with automation and it is the future and very much possible on earth. you'll just need a control centre watching cctv for jumpers or trees on tracks etc, or a much less trained than current driver who can fell multiple rolls and when its moving just sit in cab with emergency break and know how to contact and speak to signalling panel.

Freefaller · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:43

No but you get my point.

Besides, I've worked with some companies recently that embed sensors at train crossings that can detect people (and can tell the difference between animals, machinery and people), and trigger an alarm. This could easily trigger an event that slows the network down until the danger event is averted. It's been tested and has already had success. Clearly this is still a proof of concept/trial... but things are working towards this sort of thing.

The tech and systems exist, the will, and ability to deliver the tech is just not here yet.

Hawkwind1879 · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:46

Freefaller said:
You're not really being visionary enough. You don't need a driver or a signaller. You should aspire to add this level of automation. You will still need driver/signallers and experts to advise on how to control the automation - but the future is automation. A lot of work is going towards it. You might not remove ALL drivers, but you can certainly reduce the number, and move them to other roles that aid customers or the operation.

They've sent automated rovers to Mars - sure there are no people in danger at that point, but if they can do that, we can create an automated system for trains - perhaps not immediately but in due course.

The only issues we come across is the human error in the programming of the sensors/software. However this will get better in time.

The advantage of automation on rail, is that the routes are fixed, unlike cars that are free to roam/drive around freely, so there's a great opportunity.

The only people against automation are drivers and unions.

After reading that I feel I need to change my name to John Connor and start organising the resistance

Your right though eventually it will happen, but I'd be shocked if done safely in my working lifetime

Freefaller · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:49

Hawkwind1879 said:
After reading that I feel I need to change my name to John Connor and start organising the resistance

Your right though eventually it will happen, but I'd be shocked if done safely in my working lifetime

haha! Well the way this industry works, I would be surprised too. However, it should, if anything to enhance human operation and make things even safer/more efficient.

JaWalks · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:50

Basher said:
Isn't capitalism also about finding the best possible person for the role at the best rate, irrespective of if they already work for the company?

Also in your view, no one anywhere is either under or overpayed?

Exactly. Supply and demand. I can only guess that the training involved to get a driver fully qualified is expensive and there aren't that many. So the companies have an incentive to pay them well for retention.

You are paid what are you are worth at the end of the day. Irrespective of qualifications or hard work.

Gzero · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:50

Freefaller said:
No but you get my point.

Besides, I've worked with some companies recently that embed sensors at train crossings that can detect people (and can tell the difference between animals, machinery and people), and trigger an alarm. This could easily trigger an event that slows the network down until the danger event is averted. It's been tested and has already had success. Clearly this is still a proof of concept/trial... but things are working towards this sort of thing.

The tech and systems exist, the will, and ability to deliver the tech is just not here yet.

Freefaller · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:52

Basher · 6 Feb 2017 at 14:56

JaWalks said:
Exactly. Supply and demand. I can only guess that the training involved to get a driver fully qualified is expensive and there aren't that many. So the companies have an incentive to pay them well for retention.

You are paid what are you are worth at the end of the day. Irrespective of qualifications or hard work.

So if capitalism is about finding the best possible person for the role at the best rate, irrespective of if they already work for the company, then why can't external candidates apply to be a tube driver?

I also challenge the fact that everyone is paid what 'they are worth'. I would say they are paid what their existing employer believes they are worth - a subtle but important distinction.

Arazi · 6 Feb 2017 at 15:05

Mark M said:
Interesting thread and I can see both sides of the discussion. A friend of the family used to be a tube driver and had someone jump out in front of him and its virtually ruined his life. He cant sleep, is half the weight he used to be and is a shadow of his former self. He went through all the counselling that was offered but said it was of little to no help for him.

I watched a kid go air born from being hit by a car 20 yards in front of me at approx 40mph, i thought the kid was dead, i had to be relieved of duty as i couldn't drive the bus after that.

I got one week off to recover and back to work or disciplinary action, £9.50 ph.

I think getting back to work\life after that kind of event comes down to the person.

The kid survived.

Hawkwind1879 · 6 Feb 2017 at 15:19

Arazi said:
I watched a kid go air born from being hit by a car 20 yards in front of me at approx 40mph, i thought the kid was dead, i had to be relieved of duty as i couldn't drive the bus after that.

I got one week off to recover and back to work or disciplinary action, £9.50 ph.

I think getting back to work\life after that kind of event comes down to the person.

The kid survived.

That's horrible that your company would force you back. I think your right though some drivers can go back to work others are finished.

agnes · 6 Feb 2017 at 15:22

One thing people seem to forget... It's a job in central London.

TS7 · 6 Feb 2017 at 15:24

agnes said:
One thing people seem to forget... It's a job in central London.

As are thousands of other jobs? :confused:

Hawkwind1879 · 6 Feb 2017 at 15:25

Interestingly they are (or were) recruiting drivers for the New York subway and the salary is pretty comparable to a tube driver if anyone wanted to move to America

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=139435

fez · 6 Feb 2017 at 15:32

Arazi said:
I think getting back to work\life after that kind of event comes down to the person.

The kid survived.

Thats 100% true. The fact of the matter is that if you cannot handle these things then that is your problem. I know you cannot say how it would affect your life if you hit someone as a train driver but thats a risk of the job and when you take the job you know that. You shouldn't get paid more because of it.

Do people who drive all day get paid more for these reasons. Do nurses and doctors get paid more for treating people covered in blood with a limb hanging off? No, so why are train and tube drivers any different.

You take a job and you know what it might involve. Thats your choice and you are not forced to do it.

Hawkwind1879 · 6 Feb 2017 at 15:34

Train drivers do not get paid more because of hitting someone in any form, nor do rail staff who have to scrape up the bits, its just what goes with the job

Arazi · 6 Feb 2017 at 15:36

fez said:
Thats 100% true. The fact of the matter is that if you cannot handle these things then that is your problem. I know you cannot say how it would affect your life if you hit someone as a train driver but thats a risk of the job and when you take the job you know that. You shouldn't get paid more because of it.

Do people who drive all day get paid more for these reasons. Do nurses and doctors get paid more for treating people covered in blood with a limb hanging off? No, so why are train and tube drivers any different.

You take a job and you know what it might involve. Thats your choice and you are not forced to do it.

Well said.

danlightbulb · 6 Feb 2017 at 15:57

Salary is the reward for the convoluted mechanism to get into the role.

Same as for air traffic controllers which I looked into a few years ago. You have to make a big sacrifice on the starting salary in order to achieve the prize later on.

dowie · 6 Feb 2017 at 15:59

danlightbulb said:
Salary is the reward for the convoluted mechanism to get into the role.

Same as for air traffic controllers which I looked into a few years ago. You have to make a big sacrifice on the starting salary in order to achieve the prize later on.

I don't think you understand how pay works, there isn't some manager at TfL thinking 'oh we should reward tube drivers with extra money because they've had a bit of a faff trying to land the role'.