Poll: Saudi Arabia Grand Prix 2022, Jeddah - Race 2

[cuke2u]

No other way to do, those who refer to 'good old days of overtaking' are just seeing it through rose tinted glasses. For season after season we had race after race where the overtaking was zero to none.
There will never be a radical change to the current platform of f1 cars either.
I get the impression that these calls to get rid of drs is to prevent one rcertain acing driver from overtaking...

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Then you'd be wrong.

People have been calling for removal of DRS since it was introduced but what has the FIA done? ... they doubled-down and increased most circuits to 3 DRS zones!

I would much rather teams have a bit more development on battery storage/deployment that drivers can use tactically to attack/defend as required.

 

[MooMoo444]

DRS needs to go. Especially if it's gonna result in people slamming on just before a DRS line. It's just stupid.

 

[this_is_gav]

No other way to do, those who refer to 'good old days of overtaking' are just seeing it through rose tinted glasses. For season after season we had race after race where the overtaking was zero to none.

This. Was racing better in, for example, the 1990s than 2021? Probably, yes. But a lot of the upsets and great races came from mechanical issues and retirements rather than great wheel-to-wheel racing (Nurburgring 1999 and Interlagos 2003 for example). Suzuka 2005 (possibly the best dry race in the 'modern' era) was down to rain in qualifying (and the single lap attempt) meaning most of the fastest cars were near the back - it was hardly the norm.

The 2022 cars seem to be much, much better at following closely based on the first two races, but take away DRS and I don't think you'd get all that many overtakes in a race. The first few laps, yes, but the inevitable field spread would still be there (though perhaps a bit closer) and given how short the braking distances still are the chances of a genuine overtake would be minimal without a sizeable speed offset (due to fresh tyres for example). I think most would get very bored very quickly.

Personally I think DRS should stay for now but be, say, 2/3 or half the length that it currently is at most tracks (or at least experiment with it at somewhere like Montreal or Baku). The Alonso/Ocon thing at the weekend was great while it lasted,, but executing an overtake should be difficult- DRS should only help a car get into a position to make a move, not do it for them.

At least with the Verstappen/Leclerc battle at Bahrain, with moves only at the end of straights. That and a clear difference in their battery deployment.

 

[Mr Jack]

No other way to do, those who refer to 'good old days of overtaking' are just seeing it through rose tinted glasses. For season after season we had race after race where the overtaking was zero to none.

There were seasons where there was very little overtaking, but instead of trying to fix the cars or the tracks to improve it they slapped DRS on the cars and steadily increased its availability and instead of seeing cleverly executed passes we see the same ol' DRS overtakes in the same old spot lap after lap. At least Leclerc's antics and the new cars have made there be some vague hint of strategy around them.

There will never be a radical change to the current platform of f1 cars either.

Huh? We just had a radical change. This is nonsense.

I get the impression that these calls to get rid of drs is to prevent one rcertain acing driver from overtaking...

Tedious.

 

[cuke2u]

No we had a change in the aerodynamics not a radical change in the platform or the engine/drivechain.
As far as many people calling for overtaking, only 10% in this survey said they wished for more overtaking https://cdn-1.motorsportnetwork.com/survey/2021/2021-f1-global-fan-survey-motorsportnetwork.pdf
You had your chance to voice your opinions then and it was worse without drs and it aways will be..

Tedious.

But totally accurate...

Have a read of this too https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/overtaking-records-in-f1/6438038/

 

[Mr Jack]

No we had a change in the aerodynamics not a radical change in the platform or the engine/drivechain.

We had a radical change in the aerodynamics. Just as we had a radical change in the engines in 2014. F1 has always had times of big change, and it will continue to do so.

As far as many people calling for overtaking, only 10% in this survey said they wished for more overtaking https://cdn-1.motorsportnetwork.com/survey/2021/2021-f1-global-fan-survey-motorsportnetwork.pdf

That's not what your source says. In fact it lists a lack of overtaking as the one "brand feature" that has net negative approval.

...it was worse without drs and it aways will be.

With cars that are badly designed for overtaking, yes, DRS is better than not having not DRS but it also acts to reduce attention to the fundamental flaw and reduces the number of interesting overtakes - why try a risky pass when you can just cruise pass on the straight at the overpowered DRS zone? - and thus stops the sport from addressing the actual problem. It's only papering over the cracks.

Have a read of this too https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/overtaking-records-in-f1/6438038/

You know you can edit your posts, right? I'm aware of these "overtaking" stats but since they don't bother to distinguish DRS overtakes from skill overtakes it's an irrelevant comparison. Yes, with DRS the cars pass each other more but it's rarely an interesting form of racing. This season it has worked a little better with the battles between Max and Charles but it's still pretty weaksauce.

 

[cuke2u]

OK, however you realise that with today's f1 cars, being the larger and heavier, without drs you would just have train of cars following each other unable to overtake. Like we had in the past even with lighter cars.
Thus the sweetheart of this forum, unless being in front of everyone, would be just as penalised as anyone else.
DRS was brought in for a reason but I guess some are too young to remember why.

The stats I believe, show that drs has been successful. There, happy now as I edited my post?

 

[Mr Jack]

OK, however you realise that with today's f1 cars, being the larger and heavier, without drs you would just have train of cars following each other unable to overtake. Like we had in the past even with lighter cars.

The new aero rules should make overtaking much more possible, but until we see them on a track with no DRS we just won't know. DRS isn't just an uninteresting way to pass, it also displaces the more interesting passes because drivers can simply wait and use the overpowered DRS to sail past. The solution isn't DRS; it's working on the regs until they produce cars than can race.

The stats I believe, show that drs has been successful. There, happy now as I edited my post?

The stats show that DRS lets people pass, but DRS passes are typically uninteresting.

Thus the sweetheart of this forum, unless being in front of everyone, would be just as penalised as anyone else.

Tedious.

 

[cuke2u]

I agree that the new aero rules appear, from the first two races, to be working however we've had one of the races at a track unusual to the norm so the jury is still out.
But without drs there is currently no other solution. The FIA have at least tried to make it a level playing field, so that appeased those who kept stating it had become a one team championship, by restricting the aero and the engine rules.
But currently, it they were to take the drs away, then the teams would be able to do little to make their car faster than anyone else's.
For that there would need to be major changes to the cars and the tracks.

 

[Slam62]

Blimey, so with DRS it would be impossible to overtake then?

Well no, it would just be a lot more exciting and take a lot more skill. The current drivers have become lazy and the now much stronger drs means they just breeze past.
DRS was introduced to allow cars to close up not to enable the overtake, now if the cars can follow closely no more need for DRS.

 

[Jono8]

Yup. I find the DRS games a bit cringeworthy to be honest. It just seems a bit fake and contrived, especially with them braking hard to drop behind someone just so they can get DRS.

Also, the new regs havent introduced much new. We still had the same shenanigans at this track with Lewis and Max.

 

[Entai]

Blimey, so with DRS it would be impossible to overtake then?

Well no, it would just be a lot more exciting and take a lot more skill. The current drivers have become lazy and the now much stronger drs means they just breeze past.
DRS was introduced to allow cars to close up not to enable the overtake, now if the cars can follow closely no more need for DRS.

NO

DRS was initially introduced because no one could overtake.
They would catch up ok, but as soon as you pull out of the slipstream drag hit and you slowed, so unable to pass unless a vast excess of power compared to the car in front, or ridiculously late on the brakes.

Teams then developed their aero, so following cars could not even get close.

Get rid of DRS now and we will be back to the same thing, cars will be able to follow, due to new aero, but again pull out to overtake, and you will never get past unless you have more power than the opposition.

Late breakers are not advantaged any more as this version of ground effect drops significantly as you slow down, so the very moment you want grip, in the last few inches before turn in, is the same place you loose a tonne of grip and understeer off.

We need DRS to get up alongside half way down the straights to then be able to out brake with some skill, and chance to stay on the track.

Yes we only want one zone per track, and setup so you loose the DRS about half way down the straight, not right up into the braking zone.

 

[Slam62]

NO

DRS was initially introduced because no one could overtake.
They would catch up ok, but as soon as you pull out of the slipstream drag hit and you slowed, so unable to pass unless a vast excess of power compared to the car in front, or ridiculously late on the brakes.

Teams then developed their aero, so following cars could not even get close.

Get rid of DRS now and we will be back to the same thing, cars will be able to follow, due to new aero, but again pull out to overtake, and you will never get past unless you have more power than the opposition.

Late breakers are not advantaged any more as this version of ground effect drops significantly as you slow down, so the very moment you want grip, in the last few inches before turn in, is the same place you loose a tonne of grip and understeer off.

We need DRS to get up alongside half way down the straights to then be able to out brake with some skill, and chance to stay on the track.

Yes we only want one zone per track, and setup so you loose the DRS about half way down the straight, not right up into the braking zone.

Hi, I appreciate you have billions of years of experience in f1, but obviously a car pulling out from the slipstream will hit a resistance, but no more than the car being overtaken, the skill is in the braking zone or the driver may just have better tires, different set up, whatever.
DRS is now making the process too easy.

Your statement about late breakers makes no sense, as both cars have the same aerodynamics.

So I don't agree that drs was introduced to allow a car to go sailing past, it was introduced to balance the disadvantage of turbulence when following. The idea was that overtaking would still be a challenge in the breaking zone.

In SA it was almost comedic.

 

[Entai]

Hi, I appreciate you have billions of years of experience in f1, but obviously a car pulling out from the slipstream will hit a resistance, but no more than the car being overtaken, the skill is in the braking zone or the driver may just have better tires, different set up, whatever.
DRS is now making the process too easy.

Your statement about late breakers makes no sense, as both cars have the same aerodynamics.

So I don't agree that drs was introduced to allow a car to go sailing past, it was introduced to balance the disadvantage of turbulence when following. The idea was that overtaking would still be a challenge in the breaking zone.

In SA it was almost comedic.

Try reading my post before replying, and you will realise we are saying the same thing.

I never said DRS was initially intended to allow cars to go sailing past.

That is purely a result of further development of cars since DRS was introduced, and is wrong in every way.

I agree totally with your last part, and I said exactly that.

But DRS, as in the wing gap closing, as you hit the breaking zone, is what needs changing.

We need the wing closing half way down the straight once cars are alongside each other.

Then drivers skill is what completes any overtake, not someone going 15/20 kmh faster, and sailing past, and not the wing gap closing when you hit the brakes.

And no both cars do not have the same aero, even team mates do not have the same aero, almost every car is different, as can be clearly seen in the speed traps.
So one car pulling out of slipstream, could be vastly more effected than another, either positively, or negatively depending upon aero setup.

 

[Slam62]

Try reading my post before replying, and you will realise we are saying the same thing.

I never said DRS was initially intended to allow cars to go sailing past.

That is purely a result of further development of cars since DRS was introduced, and is wrong in every way.

I agree totally with your last part, and I said exactly that.

But DRS, as in the wing gap closing, as you hit the breaking zone, is what needs changing.

We need the wing closing half way down the straight once cars are alongside each other.

Then drivers skill is what completes any overtake, not someone going 15/20 kmh faster, and sailing past, and not the wing gap closing when you hit the brakes.

And no both cars do not have the same aero, even team mates do not have the same aero, almost every car is different, as can be clearly seen in the speed traps.
So one car pulling out of slipstream, could be vastly more effected than another, either positively, or negatively depending upon aero setup.

They both have the same aerodynamic opportunities then.

Anyway I've lost the will to carry on.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

Anyway I've lost the will to carry on.

 

[Slam62]

Interesting on board and team radio edit, obviously not provided by sky, seemed to show that Lewis was told to box just before the vsc as long a the pit lane was open but didn't because he saw the car in the way.

Watching it again I can't help thinking they're starting to get to grips with the new cars.

 

[Mr Jack]

Interesting on board and team radio edit, obviously not provided by sky, seemed to show that Lewis was told to box just before the vsc as long a the pit lane was open but didn't because he saw the car in the way.

Yeah, easy to say he should have come in but he's making a judgement at 200mph whether to break the rule about how you cross the pit entry line or not (Hülkenberg did, 7s later, and wasn't penalised presumably because the car in the way was considered to meet the rules about justified exceptions).

 

[Slam62]

The on board from Ricciardos car seemed to show there was just enough room, Russell seemed to get between the car and the line (I think it was him) but yes it was tight and after all the shenanigans last year Lewis probably has become a bit paranoid.

I don't think it made a lot of difference.

It was funny how Verstappen kept whining about Leclerc crossing the line and no one gave a xxxx.