Save the NHS!

[Evole]

And if you ever get seriously ill and lose your job, will you be quite happy to get the crumbs with the other 'lab rats', or will you perhaps try to move back here to use the NHS...

I can see you have no clue of the US system. If you have no job and someone gets cancer your dead.

"Medicare Part B covers outpatient chemotherapy treatments, such as in a freestanding clinic or doctor's office. In this case, you'd pay 20 percent of the Medicare-approved amount, after paying the Medicare Part B deductible. Medicare also covers radiation therapy for cancer patients"

No income no help.

This is hilarious, no one is going to reject you a treatment by law. You will get billed the 20% but no one is going to say unless you pay you're not getting it.

The NHS is already just as bad as the American crumbs so not much to look forward to.

Also, if you really search hard you'll find places like this:

http://mybill.nm.org/financial-assistance.html

which is a top notch hospital, you`ll get FREE medically necessary care which cancer would fall on as long as you make LESS THAN 200% poverty level.

There are options, this stupid stereotype of American healthcare horror stories that unless you take your credit card on operating table they'll let you bleed to death is just total shambles.

 

[Uther]

Yeah ok. My wife's just come out of a top NHS hopital in London, where she had a life saving heart op, by a top team of surgeons. She was in for nearly three weeks.
The cost? Whatever it is my tax/NI is.

 

[RaohNS]

Yep, it's quite obvious what they will do and are doing. The problem is quite simple: people are living to older ages and older people require more expensive care. So they push back the pension ages for most and reduce the healthcare for the poorer people. This solves the pension crisis straight away - the poor don't collect one!

They are sorted because they can afford to go abroad to get treatment. The irony is the middle-class types who support this think they are okay because they have private health care in this country. What they are seemingly overlooking is private health care in this country is woeful when it comes to effective and efficient outcomes. They get their appointments quick in nice buildings and somehow equate that to effective care completely ignoring the actual important thing that one should be looking at: outcomes.

It is inescapable in that regard. Age is the determining factor in much of this.

I believe in the NHS is the keystone institution of this country. I am not against private options per se, but the NHS must remain a national institution. I went a hospital recently and when you walk in, its more like stepping into a shopping centre than a place where care is afforded.

Private should be a last reserve and not the first option.

I think saving NHS is stupid, sooner they sell it off the better. Private healthcare is by far superior.

I am healthy, why should I pay for some 80 year old geezer who lives in the hospital? He should've looked ahead and saved up for his hospitalization, sell his bungalow or something. Utterly ridiculous.

How old are you evole?

That's like saying, lets get rid of police force, spend it more on the hospital beds... Makes no sense. We are helping people in middle east to be safe and achieve democracy. This is the job of well moraled western countries is to act as world police.

Its nothing of the kind. People in the middle east in case you haven't noticed are quite averse to the export of democracy. Even stable nations have it in illusionary form only.

That is some extreme conspiracy theory you have here, do you have any verifiable research or proof?? Total crap.

I could get you to show yourself at any point. Go and walk into a hospital and look who provides services, check who owns the land and who leases the premises. Total ignorance. For someone with a ~100 post count saying these things well...

 

[Evole]

Yeah ok. My wife's just come out of a top NHS hopital in London, where she had a life saving heart op, by a top team of surgeons. She was in for nearly three weeks.
The cost? Whatever it is my tax/NI is.

Don't get me wrong, NHS is great for when it comes to easily diagnosable life threatening physical conditions.

Anything below that, especially mental health and you might as well shoot yourself.

Wish all the best to you and your wife.

 

[deuse]

This is hilarious, no one is going to reject you a treatment by law. You will get billed the 20% but no one is going to say unless you pay you're not getting it.

The NHS is already just as bad as the American crumbs so not much to look forward to.

Also, if you really search hard you'll find places like this:

http://mybill.nm.org/financial-assistance.html
which is a top notch hospital, you`ll get FREE medically necessary care which cancer would fall on as long as you make LESS THAN 200% poverty level.

There are options, this stupid stereotype of American healthcare horror stories that unless you take your credit card on operating table they'll let you bleed to death is just total shambles.

Tell that to the 45,000 people that die every year in the US because the have no health care.
Again. No money...no help.

 

[RaohNS]

I just dont think you guys realize how bad the NHS has become, I had to wait 2 weeks for an appointment with my GP. The results of labs took weeks, forget about any referrals to specialists that was months. No choice who you get to see, no chance for second opinion.

From what I've heard, even the medicare is not that bad!! You assume that NHS is this holy grail of quality service, when truly its light years behind state of the art hospitals here. It doesnt even matter how much money you have in UK, private healthcare does not have any advanced hospitals that are beyond NHS. It's a mere quick pass to NHS, the actual quality is identical.

Lol, so moaning about the NHS, then using it? If you don't like it pay private at one of your "state of the art" hospitals and stop clogging up the free service

 

[Evole]

Lol, so moaning about the NHS, then using it? If you don't like it pay private at one of your "state of the art" hospitals and stop clogging up the free service

What are you talking about? I used to live and work in the UK and I had to use the NHS. Did you expect me to fly to states to go to a GP? I already paid NI, I had no desire to pay for private on top of that.

How old are you?

 

[Evole]

Tell that to the 45,000 people that die every year in the US because the have no health care.
Again. No money...no help.

Alright, the force is strong with this one... They go to the hospital bleeding out, the nurses on entrances chant "No Money... No Help" I guess this is how it is? Tell me more.

Its such a ridiculous statement when any hospital in the nation by law is obliged to treat a medically necessary condition with no regards to finances.

If you're dumb enough to assume that since you have no insurance you cant go to hospital to get treated, its probably for the best.

I wonder what the figure is for NHS when it comes to mental issues and depressions, I wonder how many a year die, ratioed to the population amount due to total lack of attention to these issues.

How many individuals developed severe complications because GP's shafted them since they only had 5 minutes for a conversation that would end with saying "take paracetamol, go home"

How many ambulances have failed to come because they had a wasted teen-ager at the back who would do same every bloody week. Have you seen any city center in UK on a night out? Theres ambulances everywhere waiting to haul these drunk ass retards to hospital for FREE, while you wait for hours.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

It is not about refusing to treat. The US has created a culture where people are sometimes forced to choose between treatment and unpayable debt. Yes the choice is made by the person but it is not a choice someone should be forced to make just because they cannot afford it.

As far as mental health goes, indulging a patient because he pays you big money may not be the solution to the patients problem, regardless of whether he feels better or not.

And why you should be paying for old geezers? Well, it is because they paid for you until you started earning and you also pay for your own treatment.

I would love an opt out scheme for the NHS, where idiots can go private and pay more while alleviation the costs to the NHS, as the major issues with the nhs at the moment are management and resource issues caused by funding.

I will go ahead and assume that your issues with the NHS was that you felt your condition was far more severe than they did and so you felt you were not prioritised enough. Considering you focus on mental health, i imagine it could be related to your own experience but how do you think they can judge the severity of mental health issues which equate to depression but no immediate intentions of causing harm?

In private healthcare, you get seen if you can pay. If everyone went private, resources would still be stretched thin. If everyone but the poor went private, that would be unfair. Private or public, the number of doctors and patients would be the same if you dont exclude people from treatment because they cant pay.

 

[deuse]

Alright, the force is strong with this one... They go to the hospital bleeding out, the nurses on entrances chant "No Money... No Help" I guess this is how it is? Tell me more.

Its such a ridiculous statement when any hospital in the nation by law is obliged to treat a medically necessary condition with no regards to finances.

If you're dumb enough to assume that since you have no insurance you cant go to hospital to get treated, its probably for the best.

They treat you so you can leave the hospital grounds. After that your on your own.

And as for the 45,000 a year it's true. It was a US gov survey.
I can see your new to my second country.

 

[Evole]

It is not about refusing to treat. The US has created a culture where people are sometimes forced to choose between treatment and unpayable debt. Yes the choice is made by the person but it is not a choice someone should be forced to make just because they cannot afford it.

How is this not fair? You failed to secure insurance or funding for your own healthcare, you are NOT being denied a treatment meanwhile. Those who are poor have little to no regard to declaring bankruptcies, those who it affects heavily had every means to plan ahead and create savings/insurance/disability etc to address this.

As far as mental health goes, indulging a patient because he pays you big money may not be the solution to the patients problem, regardless of whether he feels better or not.

That is a ridiculous statement and you know it, calling mentally ill people who need assistance "self indulging" is a joke and downright offensive.

And why you should be paying for old geezers? Well, it is because they paid for you until you started earning and you also pay for your own treatment.

An old geezer who paid throughout all his lifetime pays his own treatments. That treatment should collerate to how much he paid. Essentially creating a zero balance. I have an issue when the young are having to foot the bill for the old who contributed way less into the system than they are taking out. Its not fair.

How about I'll give you 10 pounds while you give me 100 back? You feel that's unfair? Don't try to pull the whole interest and inflation and how many years... With all that adjusted the young are still paying way more for the old than they did for us.

 

[Werewolf]

It is not about refusing to treat. The US has created a culture where people are sometimes forced to choose between treatment and unpayable debt. Yes the choice is made by the person but it is not a choice someone should be forced to make just because they cannot afford it.

IIRC one of the biggest causes of bankruptcy in the US is still healthcare costs.

Aye, whilst emergency care may be available, something like a hip or knee operation may not be emergency care, but without it you are pretty much screwed and unable to do a lot of things.
Given how limiting and how much pain you can be in whilst awaiting a hip replacement (my mum was on morphine for a while because she needed one and it was a complicated third replacement), it's something people end up selling their houses for in the US, and may never recover from financially.

There is an article from an ahthor who was poor as a kid but got lucky in regards to teachers recognising his abilities, and his hard work (as a result of which the teachers helped him get scholarships).

"Being poor is hoping the toothache will go away"
and
"Being poor is the cough that won't go away"

From memory the US has a lot more deaths from complications relating to things like relatively minor.treatable infections because the cost to get something checked out is too high if you're on the breadline until it reaches the point at which you're in A&E because you're needing life saving treatment which has to be given, as opposed to the far cheaper (for the health provider and state) normal treatment that you couldn't afford because your insurance/healthcare plan required a large co payment and your job barely pays for rent and food.

People complain about the price of prescriptions over here, and the cost of visiting the Vet but that is nothing compared to healthcare costs in a lot of countries (IIRC even with insurance your can end up paying £20-30 for a prescription).

 

[Avenged7Fold]

That is a ridiculous statement and you know it, calling mentally ill people who need assistance "self indulging" is a joke and downright offensive.

That is not what i said. I mean that giving people pills and telling them this will work, just because it makes money and will work because the patient just wants to be told that there is an easy solution, is not the way to go. Private healthcare introduces an aspect of competition which encorouges customer satisfaction. My point is that a satisfied customer is not necessarily a cured one and could just as easily been a tricked one.

How many homeopathic practitioners seem satisfied with their treatments and how many of those treatments actually work?

If you held customer surveys on customer satisfaction, it will tell you which companies are best at making their customers feel satisfied and NOT necessarily giving a solution to your customers. People who manipulate and offer easy fake solutions will be at the top of the same list with people who offer actual treatments.

In this case, you have taken offence when none was given.

How is this not fair? You failed to secure insurance or funding for your own healthcare, you are NOT being denied a treatment meanwhile. Those who are poor have little to no regard to declaring bankruptcies, those who it affects heavily had every means to plan ahead and create savings/insurance/disability etc to address this.

All your assumptions on how it is fair work on the idea that one mans money is the same as another mans. Life is not fair, some have to fight tooth and nail to earn their bread while others reap the benefits of a huge cheque every week for sitting at a desk and relying on grunts to do the hard work.

 

[Evole]

Thing is, I totally agree that the US Medical system is in shambles. It is however nowhere near as bad as the guys who think NHS is god send seem to think it is.

I'm arguing for the PRINCIPLE, a principle of getting what you pay or paid for. I don't care if its government operated or Private operated. I want to see clear distinction between contributing and NON-contributing individuals.

It is absolutely not fair that fat mcds munching and coke drinking slobs along with wasted individuals who cause this damage upon themselves and possibly on top of that make no contributions get SAME amount of care level as individuals who make every attempt to be healthy, not go to the doctors and pay a much larger contribution.

It is not fair that a wasted teenager gets to ride an ambulance for FREE while an old grandma is laying on the floor for hours. If teenager wants to ride the ambulance cause they're wasted, pay for it so that they can buy an extra one to address the grandma issue.

I do not support the US private system health for 100th time, its totally screwed but at least in PRESERVES the PRINCIPLE of getting what you pay for.

If done correctly, we will see a society that will strive to change its toxic behaviors such as irresponsible binge drinking as it would get financially disastrous. Mcds munching slobs on benefits, would be stuck in low level treatments where they might decide to make life changes due to figuring out that being at hospital is no fun, even if they dont, their interference with normal hospital operations would be much less than it is now.

Those individuals who want to run around every specialist with any minor issue, pay up a huge premium and you're welcome to do so. The money influx into NHS will increase dramatically, the blood suckers drainage on resources would drop off. The system would actually be healthy for once.

 

[datalol-jack]

IIRC one of the biggest causes of bankruptcy in the US is still healthcare costs.

Whilst emergency care may be available, something like a hip or knee operation may not be emergency care, but without it you are pretty much screwed and unable to do a lot of things.

IIRC there is an article written by an author about "being poor" where some of his comments on it are particularly apt for healthcare under a privatised system.

"Being poor is hoping the toothache will go away"
and
"Being poor is the cough that won't go away"

From memory the US has a lot more deaths from complications relating to things like relatively minor.treatable infections because the cost to get something checked out is too high if you're on the breadline until it reaches the point at which you're in A&E because you're needing life saving treatment which has to be given, as opposed to the far cheaper (for the health provider and state) normal treatment that you couldn't afford because your insurance/healthcare plan required a large co payment and your job barely pays for rent and food.

It also encourages a lot of unnecessary risk-taking behaviour, complications from which cost even more to alleviate. At-will firing and other such gems ensure the system hobbles along, flexible as it is for the employers and health service providers.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

That principle of getting what you paid for lies at the heart of Americas poor healthcare.

Indulging that principle at the cost of other other principles:

-Children/teens/elderly who cannot pay, deserve to be as healthy as the next guy
-People who can get an easy, well paid job deserve to have better treatment than the guy who works dawn till dusk to scrape enough for the family.

=An ideal of you get what you pay for is all well and good but building something as complicated as a countries healthcare system on it, is fanciful and naive at best.

 

[Stazbumpa]

You can always pay insurance premium independently without a job

How exactly does one pay for medical insurance without a job?

My view is that there is plenty of money sloshing about but it doesn't get used properly. I'm guessing that not all of the NI money raised is used for the NHS which would indicate that it's not the NHS that needs reform but government attitude to that particular pot of cash.

TL;DR: Private healthcare is catagorically not a good idea because your ability to pay correlates precisely to the quality of care you receive.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

TL;DR: Private healthcare is catagorically not a good idea because your ability to pay correlates precisely to the quality of care you receive.

This argument wont work, because that the exact thing he is disputing and focusing on

Also i will add that amount you pay does not correlate to treatment you receive but to the need to make you feel satisfied as a customer, rather than actually treat you. Private healthcare in some countries have caused doctors to recommend all sorts of stupid things because that is what the patient wants. Even in this country does some silly treatments get prescribed because patients pushed for them. If you created a system where healthcare was run on businesses making money, then the end goal will affect the method they use to do that.

 

[Tuppy_Glossop]

How exactly does one pay for medical insurance without a job?

I think he means when you do have a job you pay insurance against losing your income so that your healthcare payments are covered by the insurerer should you lose your job.

 

[RaohNS]

What are you talking about? I used to live and work in the UK and I had to use the NHS. Did you expect me to fly to states to go to a GP? I already paid NI, I had no desire to pay for private on top of that.

How old are you?

Why use the NHS if its such a shambles? If you aren't happy waiting 2wks don't clog up the NHS and pay private. Why not fly to the states.

There's an old saying that would apply quite pertinently to you: Don't bite the hand that feeds you