Soldato
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Shackley said:
Im sure i read that at least one of them was a 20 year serving pilot albeit with no combat experience.
Hardly a weekend warrior is it?
Scan of Todays Sun - Friendly Fire Incident
- Thread starter crystaline
- Start date
Im sure i read that at least one of them was a 20 year serving pilot albeit with no combat experience.
Hardly a weekend warrior is it?
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Shackley said:
Weekend warriors? How do you know they werent active duty?
Shackley said:
There are times where I wish I could just scream. Reserve units have the IDENTICAL training that active duty units do. What you are probably confusing them with are National Guard units. So, just on that basis alone, both you and dirtydog can take your uneducated (on this subject) opinions (that's what you've been spouting, because you have NO clue of the facts) and shove them up your collective arses.
If you go through the transcript of the cockpit conversations you'll realise that the pilots were given the all clear from thier air traffic controller (Manilla Hotel) working along side UK ATC's. So just on that bit of info right there, it looks like the buck stops right at your own doorstop.
SO for all you America bashing "cowboys" that think you're all so high and mighty, think about that. It was your own personel that created the whole incident to begin with.
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andy said:
They saw the orange tarps but were unsure of what the vehicles were. They radioed in to ask if their were any friendly units in the area and were told there were none. Thats when they decided that they were enemy.
Soldato
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But they're Americans, so they must be in the wrong. Duh.Scam said:Get a grip, you might fall off that American-bashing bandwagon you're holding onto the back of.
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Stiff_Cookie said:
I think you'll find I was asking for something in particular - the scan for a presentation I was doing.
The conversation just mutated. That happens.
Oh, and how hard is it to take one of these
add a little from one of these
And come up with something the coalition fighters won't shoot at?
Anyways, I'm out of here. I've had enough of this crap to last me a lifetime. Have fun with your forums.
add a little from one of these
And come up with something the coalition fighters won't shoot at?
Anyways, I'm out of here. I've had enough of this crap to last me a lifetime. Have fun with your forums.
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People here (and the general public for that fact) are voicing their opinions on a situation where I can definitely say 99.9% of them have absolutely no experience or understanding of. It's easy for us to criticise the sortie, because we don't fully understand it. None of us can honestly say how we would have acted in that same situation and claim we would not have resulted in allied deaths.
The pilot's mission is to protect the area, if that means there are hostiles in the area then that means take them out. At the time it was considered war, "permission" isn't required I'm sure. As posted many times already, the pilots asked if there were any friendlies in the area and they were told not. I see no problem, it was a genuine mistake...
They are trained pilots FFS! ...Amateur weekend warriors? What does that make you then?
The pilot's mission is to protect the area, if that means there are hostiles in the area then that means take them out. At the time it was considered war, "permission" isn't required I'm sure. As posted many times already, the pilots asked if there were any friendlies in the area and they were told not. I see no problem, it was a genuine mistake...
Shackley said:
They are trained pilots FFS! ...Amateur weekend warriors? What does that make you then?
Soldato
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Having seen the video I feel sorry for both the chap who died and those who were injured as well as the pilots themselves. It seems quite clear to me that it was not intentional on the pilots behalf.
Did they break the rules? I'll hold my hand up and admit that I haven't a clue as I don't really understand all of the chatter except for the general jist of it, I'm certainly no expert on the rules of engagement either.
Not quite sure either why the tape was classified either, maybe there was a good reason, maybe there wasn't, but I agree that it should have been released to the coroner when he asked for it (albeit 'in camera') and that it has caused unnecessary strife between two allies that has resulted in a diplomatic fubar.
Should they be punished? If it serves as a deterrent and ensures greater safety is taken on the pilots part in the future, and they broke the rules, then yes. It would be no different in civil society. If on the other hand it was one of those accidents that happen in the fog of war, then the best step forward would be an enquiry whose purpose was to determine exactly what went wrong and more importantly, how to prevent a re-occurence.
As with all tabloids, the language they use is designed to tell you what conclusion to draw, it happens with broadsheets as well though, they just use bigger words.
Did they break the rules? I'll hold my hand up and admit that I haven't a clue as I don't really understand all of the chatter except for the general jist of it, I'm certainly no expert on the rules of engagement either.
Not quite sure either why the tape was classified either, maybe there was a good reason, maybe there wasn't, but I agree that it should have been released to the coroner when he asked for it (albeit 'in camera') and that it has caused unnecessary strife between two allies that has resulted in a diplomatic fubar.
Should they be punished? If it serves as a deterrent and ensures greater safety is taken on the pilots part in the future, and they broke the rules, then yes. It would be no different in civil society. If on the other hand it was one of those accidents that happen in the fog of war, then the best step forward would be an enquiry whose purpose was to determine exactly what went wrong and more importantly, how to prevent a re-occurence.
As with all tabloids, the language they use is designed to tell you what conclusion to draw, it happens with broadsheets as well though, they just use bigger words.
Soldato
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Gotta feel for the family of the British soldier but you also have to feel for the pilots, they sounded totally destroyed in the footage.
We can argue till the cows come home about the US being gun ho and irresponsible but in the end it's still a couple of guys who have just realised that they killed a friendly and are totally destroyed over it.
We can argue till the cows come home about the US being gun ho and irresponsible but in the end it's still a couple of guys who have just realised that they killed a friendly and are totally destroyed over it.
Soldato
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And its a war zone - where mistakes happen the same as in any other workplace - only difference is, the employees have a lot more chance of dying.
Only way to really prevent this from happening is not being there in the first place (but that will never happen). Friendly fire will always happen. The more people you have there - statistically, the more mistakes will be made.
As was said - they can learn a lot from this video, and will probably use it for years to come in their training courses. It won't bring anyone back, but it may make them think before they take someones life.
Only way to really prevent this from happening is not being there in the first place (but that will never happen). Friendly fire will always happen. The more people you have there - statistically, the more mistakes will be made.
As was said - they can learn a lot from this video, and will probably use it for years to come in their training courses. It won't bring anyone back, but it may make them think before they take someones life.
Here is the Sun article giving more details of this attack and suggesting that the MoD considered the US Pilots to be to blame.
Incidentally, Colonel Gus “Skeeter” Kohntopp who killed Matty Hull was a "Reservist" on his first ever active mission and also happens to be a "keen hunter and regular in local game-hunting competitions" - ironic huh?
British psychologists noted that Kohntopp showed a "single-minded pursuit of the UK vehicles".
Incidentally, Colonel Gus “Skeeter” Kohntopp who killed Matty Hull was a "Reservist" on his first ever active mission and also happens to be a "keen hunter and regular in local game-hunting competitions" - ironic huh?
British psychologists noted that Kohntopp showed a "single-minded pursuit of the UK vehicles".
Some unbelievable posts have spilled out into this thread!! 
First (as has already been said) do any of you seriously think that this video was 'leaked' by some high minded junior and brought to air by the courage and tenacity of a reporter at the Sun?? It was released as a 'leak' to avoid complications and I have no doubt that the 'leak' was approved by senior officials (although political pressure or public opinion may have forced their hand).
Second, what is it with people these days that is so outrageously judgemental. The death of Lance Corporal Matty Hull and the others involved is terrible, but to read that some of you think that the pilots should go to jail for this is beyond belief. They were doing their jobs. They might have done them badly (open to debate) but they were only doing their jobs.
If I do my job badly then I don't get paid and I am not asked to do such a job again. If most of you do your jobs badly then you get fired. Why is it that these guys are measured by a different standard? Whatever went wrong, these guys clearly had no intention of killing British soldiers. To send them to jail for it is twisted.
It really annoys me these days that people seem to get severely punished for mistakes or lapses in judgement but those who willingly and knowingly commit crimes are told that they need therapy or rehabilitation. Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.
Well done to our lads for holding the line and being prepared to fight out there. Well done to American pilots for being prepared to get in the cockpit despite all this kind of nonsense. Shame on those who think otherwise.
First (as has already been said) do any of you seriously think that this video was 'leaked' by some high minded junior and brought to air by the courage and tenacity of a reporter at the Sun?? It was released as a 'leak' to avoid complications and I have no doubt that the 'leak' was approved by senior officials (although political pressure or public opinion may have forced their hand).
Second, what is it with people these days that is so outrageously judgemental. The death of Lance Corporal Matty Hull and the others involved is terrible, but to read that some of you think that the pilots should go to jail for this is beyond belief. They were doing their jobs. They might have done them badly (open to debate) but they were only doing their jobs.
If I do my job badly then I don't get paid and I am not asked to do such a job again. If most of you do your jobs badly then you get fired. Why is it that these guys are measured by a different standard? Whatever went wrong, these guys clearly had no intention of killing British soldiers. To send them to jail for it is twisted.
It really annoys me these days that people seem to get severely punished for mistakes or lapses in judgement but those who willingly and knowingly commit crimes are told that they need therapy or rehabilitation. Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.
Well done to our lads for holding the line and being prepared to fight out there. Well done to American pilots for being prepared to get in the cockpit despite all this kind of nonsense. Shame on those who think otherwise.
Humpty said:Some unbelievable posts have spilled out into this thread!!
First (as has already been said) do any of you seriously think that this video was 'leaked' by some high minded junior and brought to air by the courage and tenacity of a reporter at the Sun?? It was released as a 'leak' to avoid complications and I have no doubt that the 'leak' was approved by senior officials (although political pressure or public opinion may have forced their hand).
Second, what is it with people these days that is so outrageously judgemental. The death of Lance Corporal Matty Hull and the others involved is terrible, but to read that some of you think that the pilots should go to jail for this is beyond belief. They were doing their jobs. They might have done them badly (open to debate) but they were only doing their jobs.
Agreed
