Scan of Todays Sun - Friendly Fire Incident

Shackley said:
British psychologists noted that Kohntopp showed a "single-minded pursuit of the UK vehicles".
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That was his job!!!!! Do you expect pilots to buzz around above a war zone and have a kind of laissez-faire attitude to armoured vehicles on the ground. Get a grip.
 
Humpty said:
The death of Lance Corporal Matty Hull and the others involved is terrible, but to read that some of you think that the pilots should go to jail for this is beyond belief. They were doing their jobs. They might have done them badly (open to debate) but they were only doing their jobs.

If I do my job badly then I don't get paid and I am not asked to do such a job again. If most of you do your jobs badly then you get fired. Why is it that these guys are measured by a different standard? Whatever went wrong, these guys clearly had no intention of killing British soldiers. To send them to jail for it is twisted.
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On the same lines, you might argue that Harold Shipman was "just doing his job".

These guys clearly had every intention of killing people - they were so keen to kill people that they simply didn't put in the effort to ensure that they were killing enemy combatants - which is presumably what their jobs are according to their job descriptions.

These people were exonerated and in one case, apparently promoted; so far as I can tell, they weren't fired, demoted, fined, punished or criticised in any way, shape or form. I accept your point about the current "blame culture", particularly in the USA. However, if you let cowboys like this get away with what they did, it simply encourages others to shoot first and ask questions later - if at all.

Entirely regardless of whether they made a forgivable mistake in killing Matty Hull, these guys are alleged to have killed two Iraqi civilians who had been waving a large white flag Guardian Link. I doubt that this was in their job descriptions - it was just that neither they nor their commanders could care less. If it hadn't been for the death of Matty Hull, we would never have heard about these guys who are probably just the tip of an iceberg of Iraqi civilians who the Americans murdered without comment or criticism.
 
Shackley said:
/snip
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Your points have some merit (aside from the daft Harold Shpiman comment), but I wouldn't agree with them. However, my main problem is that people seem to think that pilots accidentally killing people on the ground is the same as (or even worse than) murder.

Most of my comments are based on having watched the video in the link in the OP. I can't comment on the 'white flag' incidents in this case because I have no knowledge of them; but I do know that the white flag is rapidly becoming a dubious sign of surrender.
 
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I'm 90% sure that this would not have happened if the pilots of the A10 were full-time air force servicemen.

The thing with reservists (weekend warriors), they have nowhere near the experience a full-time serviceman of equal length of commision (these were officers remember), and with that comes the unfamiliarity of allied vehicles. The don't recognise the profile of British tanks, simply because they aren't trained to recognise them.

That article didn't mention that the same British patrol, some hours earlier had passed a couple of Marines on the road, had stopped to discuss whatever, common procedure, but when the British Officer dismounted from his Scimitar, one marine said "Gee guys! Where'd u get the Iraqi tanks?" The British officer was in disbelief, and had to convince the marines that these were infact British Armoured Recon vehicles.

Now I'm not sure if those marines were reservists, but if they weren't, and they didn't know what Scimitars looked like, then how the hell are some yankie flyboys who are overexcited and just want to be heroes on their tour of duty going to tell the difference.

I have a fair idea of most US army vehicles that they use, and could recognise/identify each from a simple silouette profile, and I'm not even in the British Army (not till September, when I goto Sandhurst, Infantry Officer f t w!). US Marines are drones, they only know what they are taught, and they are not taught about British vehicles, and from this story, the same conclusion can be drawn of the USAF.
 
Cyberstrike2027 said:
I'm 90% sure that this would not have happened if the pilots of the A10 were full-time air force servicemen.

The thing with reservists (weekend warriors), they have nowhere near the experience a full-time serviceman of equal length of commision (these were officers remember), and with that comes the unfamiliarity of allied vehicles. The don't recognise the profile of British tanks, simply because they aren't trained to recognise them.

That article didn't mention that the same British patrol, some hours earlier had passed a couple of Marines on the road, had stopped to discuss whatever, common procedure, but when the British Officer dismounted from his Scimitar, one marine said "Gee guys! Where'd u get the Iraqi tanks?" The British officer was in disbelief, and had to convince the marines that these were infact British Armoured Recon vehicles.

Now I'm not sure if those marines were reservists, but if they weren't, and they didn't know what Scimitars looked like, then how the hell are some yankie flyboys who are overexcited and just want to be heroes on their tour of duty going to tell the difference.

I have a fair idea of most US army vehicles that they use, and could recognise/identify each from a simple silouette profile, and I'm not even in the British Army (not till September, when I goto Sandhurst, Infantry Officer f t w!). US Marines are drones, they only know what they are taught, and they are not taught about British vehicles, and from this story, the same conclusion can be drawn of the USAF.
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Well it shows how little you know really.

Where did you hear the story about the Marines?

You havent worked with the US military, probably only heard about them on the TV or in the papers yet are drawing conclusions like that from one article. Good job!
 
Cyberstrike2027 said:
Now I'm not sure if those marines were reservists, but if they weren't, and they didn't know what Scimitars looked like, then how the hell are some yankie flyboys who are overexcited and just want to be heroes on their tour of duty going to tell the difference..
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Yep because every single serviceman has the exact same level of intellingence.

Marine = "Yankie flyboy" = Army caterer.
 
Zip said:
Well now i know where Mickey_D has gone :(


******* ******* :mad: :( :(
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:confused:

Do you mean because of this thread? He should realise feelings will run high on a British forum about a subject of Americans negligently killing Britons. Can you imagine how Americans would react if the shoe was on the other foot. And if the British government refused to hand over evidence to the Americans. (This is hypothetical because when they ask us to do anything, we do it. Sadly the 'special relationship' is a one-way street.)
 
Cyberstrike2027 said:
That article didn't mention that the same British patrol, some hours earlier had passed a couple of Marines on the road, had stopped to discuss whatever, common procedure, but when the British Officer dismounted from his Scimitar, one marine said "Gee guys! Where'd u get the Iraqi tanks?" The British officer was in disbelief, and had to convince the marines that these were in fact British Armoured Recon vehicles.
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Do you have a source for this yarn?
 
While I agree with you partly. US friendly fire contiunes to go on. I love pilots, I would love to be one in an A10 more than life its self but they radio'd in asking if friendlys were in the area. They were told no but before you can open fire on any non attacking target you must ask for orders to engage.

Unless you know just how powerful an A-10s minigun is you can not appreciate the horiffic death of Matty Hull. God rest his soul.
 
crystaline said:
.........I would like to use it in a university presentation here about external perceptions of the US............
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On the original topic, how'd the presentation go?

Undoubtedly the US has declared war on OcUKistan!
 
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