^^THIS. Really gets my goat when a spy can stab you, switch to sapper and sap all three of your builds before the sentry gun can even turn to get a lock on him.
Scripting, cheating or not?
- Thread starter Evilsod
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^^THIS. Really gets my goat when a spy can stab you, switch to sapper and sap all three of your builds before the sentry gun can even turn to get a lock on him.
Sorry from now on I shall write my posts as a step by step clearly saying I know to press the Reload key just before each melee hit etc.
I know full well you press the reload key just before pressing the melee key, wasn't expecting to have to reiterate this in my posts.
Considering your last post claimed you coudln't reload while melee'ing at all (even if you claim it was an error) i see no reason why i shouldn't be skeptical tbh.
Not talking about L4D2, but certainly in Enemy Territory, the game I play, scripting is not cheating, if your to much of a noob to create the scripts or add the scripts to your config yourself then it's your own fault, anyone can use them legally it's not any form of a cheat.
I think Pink has to concede that there will be at least the odd occasion when if he had a reload script, it would reload in a split second window before a melee (for example) when he may not have done. To claim otherwise is not necessarily lying, but to be 100% certain you've never, EVER missed a chance to reload? I wouldn't want to be trying to defend that position...but the closer to that 100% you are, the less benefit you'd get out of the script. Let's say most decent gamers hover between 98-99 percent of reloading when possible in l4d, so there will be 1-2% of the time you don't. Of those, I'd say maybe a further 1% actually has much of an impact on the game. So the script makes you 0.01% better at the game, and lazy? And you guys are arguing over this? (not judging, I like arguing too...)
So yeah, it is cheating, but not that big a deal. That spin script is a better example...
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I don't think it's cheating at-all. I think that for PC gaming it's just another development. If you're really interested in a game, and the mechanics of it, then of course you should benefit, there's nothing stopping anyone else from doing the same thing. For instance, TFC, I have numerous scripts for rocket jumps/bh/reload etc, and they do make my game a lot quicker, but anyone can do that, in-fact everyone does!.
Was macro/scripting cheating in ultima online as well?, or did everyone used to literally spend 6 hours a day mining/fishing/whatever. I'm not sure where you draw the line. Optimising the game fr instance?, messing with config files etc, is this cheating?.
all that says is you can;t do it by your own skill so you have the computer do it for you.
No different to having an aimbot aim for you.
Soldato
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Get rid of all scripting imo. If someone has it they have an unfair advantage regardless of the fact everyone could also have the same script.
The 360 melee script sums it all up and is quite possibly a game breaker. Its hard enough for infected to win a round on L4D2 without someone being practically immune to getting pounced.
The 360 melee script sums it all up and is quite possibly a game breaker. Its hard enough for infected to win a round on L4D2 without someone being practically immune to getting pounced.
Problem is devs like Valve allow it. The way a lot of ppl see it though is that for your average gamer it will seem like these players have extra skills because they are doing things you cant do as a newish player. Perhaps devs want to reward players who get more involved in the game (clan players etc) And how do you distinguish between veterans and new/casual players? By allowing those with the will and enthusiasm to edit a few commands that let them do basic actions a bit smoother so they can concentrate on gameplay.
So in principle im in favour of scripts until it crosses a line to become an exploit or cheat. Thats why i said earlier its not black and white...its more shades of grey......until you get to priest black no going back for em (e.g. mygot
)
So in principle im in favour of scripts until it crosses a line to become an exploit or cheat. Thats why i said earlier its not black and white...its more shades of grey......until you get to priest black no going back for em (e.g. mygot
)
Soldato
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I think it's in there because there are legitimate uses for it, buy scripts, volume scripts etc.
Removing would be a case of punishing everyone for the few that abuse it.
Some further thoughts about the typical arguments that come up with this:
"It's just automating something that I would do anyway". If that's the case why use it at all? If it's just automating something that's second nature to you then the script is surely redundant isn't it? This probably sounds a bit dumb but if I get caught in a situation with no ammo in a gun then that's my fault. I'd rather learn from that mistake and learn - even if it's a slow process - to become more disciplined at keeping guns reloaded then autonomise it and never learn anything from the experience. Likewise if someone notices I haven't reloaded a gun and uses that information as part of a coordinated attack, or simply to get more hits in on another survivor (before I can rescue them) then fair play to them - they used valuable information to their advantage and should be rewarded for it.
"Anyone can do scripts, if you can't input a script you're a noob". I hate this one. Just because something is possible via scripts doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't have them, or the capability to write/install them, should suffer. In TF2 there's actually some script packs that are available that add a ridiculous amount of autonomy. If you don't have this specific collection of scripts why should you have to suffer for it? Added to which this logic means that all you get is an arms race of scripting where you need scripts to be competitive and he who has the most optimised/comprehensive scripts prevails.
The bottom line for me personally is that I don't like the idea of having to rely on something other than my own cognitive ability playing a game, and even though I'm not competitive to the extremes of eSports I want to know that if someone is better than me it's because they did something better/faster than me, not because of some arbitrary script-based advantage.
I want to be able to sit at anyones PC and after getting to grips with the sensitivity difference of the mouse be at 95%+ of my usual competency on it. I don't want to have to become dependant on scripts to automate behaviour that I should be disciplined enough to handle myself.
I know it sounds like trolling but I firmly believe that anyone who uses scripts extensively does so because of a shortcoming in their own skill and/or ability. If you can't rocket jump consistently without a script doing it for you then you fail. If you can't stab & sap competently then you suck as Spy. If you are so braindead that you can't remember or can't be bothered to reload your gun(s) from time to time then you might as well just let the bot take over completely.
"It's just automating something that I would do anyway". If that's the case why use it at all? If it's just automating something that's second nature to you then the script is surely redundant isn't it? This probably sounds a bit dumb but if I get caught in a situation with no ammo in a gun then that's my fault. I'd rather learn from that mistake and learn - even if it's a slow process - to become more disciplined at keeping guns reloaded then autonomise it and never learn anything from the experience. Likewise if someone notices I haven't reloaded a gun and uses that information as part of a coordinated attack, or simply to get more hits in on another survivor (before I can rescue them) then fair play to them - they used valuable information to their advantage and should be rewarded for it.
"Anyone can do scripts, if you can't input a script you're a noob". I hate this one. Just because something is possible via scripts doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't have them, or the capability to write/install them, should suffer. In TF2 there's actually some script packs that are available that add a ridiculous amount of autonomy. If you don't have this specific collection of scripts why should you have to suffer for it? Added to which this logic means that all you get is an arms race of scripting where you need scripts to be competitive and he who has the most optimised/comprehensive scripts prevails.
The bottom line for me personally is that I don't like the idea of having to rely on something other than my own cognitive ability playing a game, and even though I'm not competitive to the extremes of eSports I want to know that if someone is better than me it's because they did something better/faster than me, not because of some arbitrary script-based advantage.
I want to be able to sit at anyones PC and after getting to grips with the sensitivity difference of the mouse be at 95%+ of my usual competency on it. I don't want to have to become dependant on scripts to automate behaviour that I should be disciplined enough to handle myself.
I know it sounds like trolling but I firmly believe that anyone who uses scripts extensively does so because of a shortcoming in their own skill and/or ability. If you can't rocket jump consistently without a script doing it for you then you fail. If you can't stab & sap competently then you suck as Spy. If you are so braindead that you can't remember or can't be bothered to reload your gun(s) from time to time then you might as well just let the bot take over completely.
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never knew scripts were that rampant in valve games 
I am a casual gamer and just want to jump in a game and only have poor knowledge of guns/maps as my disadvantage! Hoping my reflexes will do the work.
I don't want to have to use scripts but at the same time don't want to be extremeley disadvantaged like in the L4D2 scenario!
I will just try to keep to games like Battlefield, COD ect
I am a casual gamer and just want to jump in a game and only have poor knowledge of guns/maps as my disadvantage! Hoping my reflexes will do the work.
I don't want to have to use scripts but at the same time don't want to be extremeley disadvantaged like in the L4D2 scenario!
I will just try to keep to games like Battlefield, COD ect
Very well put.
never knew scripts were that rampant in valve games
It depends where you look. Its just the source engine is very open and lets you do things like that easily. The worst is what someone said about forcing 3rd person view so you could see round corners (never heard of that 1 before), the problem is this is probably 1 you can't even see while speccing unless they make very odd movements, but you'd struggle to prove it.
I trust most people that play on the OcUK servers don't do this stuff, but i know of quite a few people who do. Its just beyond irritating when someone on a friends only game turns round with Dual Pistols and unloads both clips in about 3 seconds using a script, just abusing the fact they have unlimited ammo. Or when you spec someone and can clearly see them using a perfect 360 melee script to bash off the entire horde.
I've been lucky in most games I've played that I haven't really noticed it, but there have been occasions in the past where scripting HAS exploited aspects of the games (Im thinking mainly Source games as that's what my experience has mainly been with) that aren't intended.
Like for example a script that would automatically change to a different weapon and back again after firing a shot with the Sniper rifle in TF2. Before they fixed it this bypassed the reload animation meaning anyone who did it could shoot faster than someone who let the gun reload properly. That is a bonafide unfair advantage right there and you can't view that as "convenience" since the whole intention of it was to circumvent an intended game mechanic designed to reduce your possible damage output (the reload animation).
Likewise auto pistol scripts - whilst people will whine about how it's possible to do the same manually in reality it just isn't, they know it isn't, because if it was they wouldn't need to use a script at all. If it conferred no advantage to them then it would be useless, and they wouldn't use it. The whole "convenience" crap is a smokescreen.
Like for example a script that would automatically change to a different weapon and back again after firing a shot with the Sniper rifle in TF2. Before they fixed it this bypassed the reload animation meaning anyone who did it could shoot faster than someone who let the gun reload properly. That is a bonafide unfair advantage right there and you can't view that as "convenience" since the whole intention of it was to circumvent an intended game mechanic designed to reduce your possible damage output (the reload animation).
Likewise auto pistol scripts - whilst people will whine about how it's possible to do the same manually in reality it just isn't, they know it isn't, because if it was they wouldn't need to use a script at all. If it conferred no advantage to them then it would be useless, and they wouldn't use it. The whole "convenience" crap is a smokescreen.
I feel strongly enough about it that I won't play with people when I notice they do stuff like this. If they can't play properly instead of being a cyborg then I've got no time for them.
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Sorry for not reading all 3 pages thoroughly, but it appears you guys are still debating this, so I'll ad my thoughts.
I do not consider any script that automates reasonable user input as cheating. If I can manually hit the reload button between shots (I normally do) then whats the issue with using a script for it? It doesn't make the task any easier, just makes me lazy
If the game has a button to spin 360 while melee to knock back loads of zombies, then I can bind a key on my keyboard to and press both keys at once and get the exact same outcome.
What about scripting a button that would auto select medkit and start healing yourself.... that sounds useful, would save you some time(not much though), is that going to be considered cheating by you lot?
I do not consider any script that automates reasonable user input as cheating. If I can manually hit the reload button between shots (I normally do) then whats the issue with using a script for it? It doesn't make the task any easier, just makes me lazy
If the game has a button to spin 360 while melee to knock back loads of zombies, then I can bind a key on my keyboard to and press both keys at once and get the exact same outcome.
What about scripting a button that would auto select medkit and start healing yourself.... that sounds useful, would save you some time(not much though), is that going to be considered cheating by you lot?