Shooting events, have they gone too far with technology?

RDM · 31 Jul 2012 at 10:49

spoffle said:
A 6 pound bow isn't really much, and (dat ninja edit) 70 pounds to pull it back doesn't sound that high either.

I don't thnk I could draw a 70lb recurve nevermind hold it to aim!

Skeeter · 31 Jul 2012 at 10:59

Forget the wind, with the time it takes for those arrows to get to the targets I'm surprised they aren't affected by the rotation of the earth!

No idea how anyone could think that is easy. They must be aiming a good few feet above the targets, surely?

RDM · 31 Jul 2012 at 11:01

Skeeter said:
No idea how anyone could think that is easy. They must be aiming a good few feet above the targets, surely?

Nah you have your sight set up so you aim for the gold. The arrow may well be pointi g above the target however.

Shoei · 31 Jul 2012 at 12:24

This is 60 yards. Spot the first 2 arrows, quick adjustment of the sight.
Just wish i could shoot like i did for the last 4 every time.

spoffle · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:00

Vonhelmet said:
6lb isn't much, but to hold 6lb at arm's length is, particularly when you are aiming at something so far away that if your hand moves even a millimetre in any direction it's the difference between hitting the target and not.

And I removed the 70lb because I had been misunderstanding how that number factors into how a compound how works. It's less relevant than I thought, so I took it out. It's more like holding a force of a few percent of that, but even holding just 2lb or whatever at full draw is going to make it incredibly hard to keep the whole thing steady.

6 pounds at arm's length isn't much at all. It's what, just over 2.5KGs?

Shoei said:
My compound bow weighs 3.7lbs, add in the stabiliser & we'll call it 4lbs.
Draw weight is around 38-40lbs with an 80% let off. So at full draw im holding around 8lbs unlike a 42lb recurve, where at full draw your holding 42lb.
So holding 4lbs out at arms length, wind is catching the stabiliser, trying to relax grip on the bow but actually pulling the bow into my hand(hard to explain), looking through the peep sight at the scope on my sight, at this very small gold circle 70yds down range that wont hold still & finding just the right time to release. Its a real challenge, thats why i love it. Plus it takes my mind of my MS while i shoot.

I honestly don't think the holding and drawing part would be at all hard. I'm not making claims that I'd be able to shoot even remotely accurately, but I wouldn't have a problem holding a bow and drawing it back properly.

RDM said:
I don't thnk I could draw a 70lb recurve nevermind hold it to aim!

Really?

Vonhelmet · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:12

spoffle said:
6 pounds at arm's length isn't much at all. It's what, just over 2.5KGs?

It's more like 2.75Kgs, and it is hard to hold at arm's length when moving your hand as much as 1mm in any direction makes the difference between hitting the bullseye and not even hitting the target.

Man, this is like banging your head against a brick wall.

Vonhelmet · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:13

Shoei said:
My compound bow weighs 3.7lbs, add in the stabiliser & we'll call it 4lbs.
Draw weight is around 38-40lbs with an 80% let off. So at full draw im holding around 8lbs unlike a 42lb recurve, where at full draw your holding 42lb.
So holding 4lbs out at arms length, wind is catching the stabiliser, trying to relax grip on the bow but actually pulling the bow into my hand(hard to explain), looking through the peep sight at the scope on my sight, at this very small gold circle 70yds down range that wont hold still & finding just the right time to release. Its a real challenge, thats why i love it. Plus it takes my mind of my MS while i shoot.

Cheers for providing some real world numbers and experience. I doubt it will help much against the torrent of uninformed nonsense, but hey.

Vonhelmet · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:17

Offtopic, but this is as good a place as any to tell this story again... A lad in my brother's year at school used to be one of the best archers in the country, and would have gone to the Olympics back in 2004 or 2008 but for being seriously ill. He once raised money for charity by being sponsored to shoot a balloon off his best friend's head at 25m. I remember asking him what sort of arrows he'd be using, and whether he'd use some kind of special ones just in case anything went wrong. He said he'd be using normal ones, because in the event of an accident it would be better to have a clean entry and it would cause less damage internally that way. His friend had no qualms about it at all, having seen him shoot. They went ahead with it and raised loads of money.

Shoei · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:18

spoffle said:
I honestly don't think the holding and drawing part would be at all hard. I'm not making claims that I'd be able to shoot even remotely accurately, but I wouldn't have a problem holding a bow and drawing it back properly.

My bow goes up to 50lbs when wound in, i can draw it & hold it no problem. But after 6 arrows i can feel it & it starts to get harder. Granted im only holding 10lbs at draw & can hold that for ages. But its getting past the cams & into what they call the "valley", where it gets easier to draw. Soon gets hard work.
Its not a "push-pull" to draw, your pulling with your draw arm while holding the bow at arms length. Im slowly winding the power up in my bow after 6 months.
Ive tried to draw a few 60lb bows, no chance and to think that some longbows used to be over 100lb draw weight!!!

Judgeneo · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:22

I did archery for a while, and it the skill involved to hit the top scores is very much real.

I think there should be a bare bow event though, its a very different skill to be able to shoot without the stabilisers, clickers and sights

RDM · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:25

spoffle said:
I honestly don't think the holding and drawing part would be at all hard. I'm not making claims that I'd be able to shoot even remotely accurately, but I wouldn't have a problem holding a bow and drawing it back properly.

Really?

Really, 70lbs on recurve is pretty much unheard of, drawing that much weight and then holding it for the time it takes to aim would be horrendous. It is a pretty heavy draw even for a compound.

NuclearWinter · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:32

Vonhelmet said:
And I removed the 70lb because I had been misunderstanding how that number factors into how a compound how works. It's less relevant than I thought, so I took it out. It's more like holding a force of a few percent of that, but even holding just 2lb or whatever at full draw is going to make it incredibly hard to keep the whole thing steady.

Note that compound bows aren't used in the Olympics. They're using recurve bows with a draw weight of around 48.5lb for men.

Judgeneo · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:33

spoffle said:
I honestly don't think the holding and drawing part would be at all hard. I'm not making claims that I'd be able to shoot even remotely accurately, but I wouldn't have a problem holding a bow and drawing it back properly.

Drawing the poundage isn't difficult in itself, its keeping it steady at that weight.

Morba · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:35

It doesnt look as impressive until you see a camera shot from behind. then you see the movement of the arrow each time they step up. Wow. The aim is cracking

Vonhelmet · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:39

NuclearWinter said:
Note that compound bows aren't used in the Olympics. They're using recurve bows with a draw weight of around 48.5lb for men.

Cheers for the clarification.

In that case we can re-insert my point regarding the draw weight. To hold a 50lb force in one hand against a 4lb bow in the other and keep the whole thing steady to the order of a degree in any direction is nothing short of incredible.

For the record, it should be readily apparent that I don't know a great deal about archery, but I do know a fair bit about physics, classical mechanics and maths, which is what we're really arguing about here in terms of the "ease" of doing any of this.

mmj_uk · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:53

RDM said:
Nah you have your sight set up so you aim for the gold. The arrow may well be pointi g above the target however.

This is what I mean, it takes the skill out of it? so far all people have managed to prove is that you need to be physically strong (and obviously steady) to do it.

Would these elite archers be so good if the target was moved after every shot and their sight needing adjusting (using their own judgement) constantly? or for these guys to kill in a theatre of war do they need the enemy to be stood exactly 70yrds away to be accurate?

Vonhelmet · 31 Jul 2012 at 13:57

mmj_uk said:
so far all people have managed to prove is that you need to be physically strong (and obviously steady) to do it.

Are you saying you think that bit isn't hard enough?

Have you ever done any sort of target based sport? Rifle shooting? Pistols? Anything like that?

mmj_uk · 31 Jul 2012 at 14:11

Vonhelmet said:
Are you saying you think that bit isn't hard enough?

Not for an Olympic 'archer' no, the emphasis should be on their archery ability not physical strength and steadiness alone.

All they are doing is aiming down a pre-configured sight at a static target, give them a moving target and Robin Hood (if he was alive today) would probably beat the lot of them using just a basic bow.

RDM · 31 Jul 2012 at 14:13

mmj_uk said:
This is what I mean, it takes the skill out of it? so far all people have managed to prove is that you need to be physically strong (and obviously steady) to do it.

Not really no. If there was no skill involved how come they olympians are not getting a 10 every time? There is much more to it than just strength. Have you ever actually shot a bow?

mmj_uk said:
Would these elite archers be so good if the target was moved after every shot and their sight needing adjusting (using their own judgement) constantly? or for these guys to kill in a theatre of war do they need the enemy to be stood exactly 70yrds away to be accurate?

But that isn't what target archery is about. It is more akin to field archery. It is a sport, not a combat art (though a decent archer would probably easily hit a person as they are such a large target).

RDM · 31 Jul 2012 at 14:15

mmj_uk said:
Not for an Olympic 'archer' no, the emphasis should be on their archery ability not physical strength and steadiness alone.

All they are doing is aiming down a pre-configured sight at a static target, give them a moving target and Robin Hood (if he was alive today) would probably beat the lot of them using just a basic bow.

Robin Hood didn't really exist...

Not to mention bows as weapons of war were used en masse at a group of men rather than individually.