Shoppers 'to be charged 20p on plastic bottles & Metal Cans under return scheme

[Angilion]

You only have to look at some of the responses here to see why things like this are more difficult to implement in the UK. ME ME ME!!! WAHHH IT'S GOING TO CAUSE ME MINOR INCONVENIENCE!!!

I remember when I moved to Munich in 1999 and at that point was used to *no* recycling where I lived in the UK, so it was somewhat of a culture shock going from nothing to recycling and pfand (although as you say the kerbside collections still happen). But once I saw how little rubbish there was compared to the UK and saw the level of recycling that is done I realised it was worth it.

1) You're wildly misrepresenting the objections to this idea. So much so that your claims bear little or no resemblence to the truth. People are objecting to replacing a better system of recycling with a worse system of recycling. Ease of use for people in general is one part of that but only one part and it's not as you describe it.

2) You're comparing a total lack of recycling with this idea. That's a false comparison. The comparison in reality is between this proposed system of recycling and the better system of recycling that already exists in the UK.

3) You blame the higher level of littering and lower level of recycling in UK compared with Germany on the people of the UK but you then blame it on the UK having a better recycling system. Which makes no sense in itself anyway but which also contradicts itself.


The sole possible advantage (amongst many disadvantages) of the proposed system is that it might, just might perhaps, reduce littering in cities a very little bit as a result of homeless people collecting the very small minority of litter than would have a very small deposit on it.

The problem in the UK is not the lack of litter bins and recycling schemes. There are litter bins all over the place and there are convenient and efficient recycling schemes almost everywhere. The problem is that some people are unwilling to use them. Some people will drop litter wherever they happen to be at the time, even if there's a litter bin a metre away from them. That's not hyperbole. It's not even exaggeration. Before lockdown, I used to see it happening daily. There are a lot of litter bins in the centre of the city I live in.

The idea that those people are going to stop littering and/or start recycling simply because a more efficient and convenient recycling scheme is replaced by a less efficient and less convenient recycling scheme is nonsense.

 

[Em3bbs]

The idea that those people are going to stop littering and/or start recycling simply because a more efficient and convenient recycling scheme is replaced by a less efficient and less convenient recycling scheme is nonsense.

Then why has it worked in Germany? To your points numbered 2 and 3 prove the point - they were at the stage we were at 20 odd years ago, then changed, and the data shows that more recycling is done there now.

 

[Angilion]

Then why has it worked in Germany? To your points numbered 2 and 3 prove the point - they were at the stage we were at 20 odd years ago, then changed, and the data shows that more recycling is done there now.

Has it worked in Germany? At best, you're citing correlation as causation. That's assuming there is a correlation backed up by data and that the recycling and public bin facilities used in Germany "20 odd years ago" were the same (in coverage and ease of use) as in the UK today and that nothing else relevant has changed in Germany over that period of time.

What you're not doing is supporting the argument that simply replacing a better recycling system with a worse recycling system will inevitably and by itself cause an increase in recycling.

 

[davejh666]

What we need is bigger fines imposed for people who litter. The amount of time I still see people throw a cigarette out of the car window.

We could also do with more recycling room at home. I have asked before from the council for an extra recycle bin or a larger one but have been told that I can't have one. I usually have to stand in the bin to squash it all down a bit more by middle of the 2nd week.

 

[Illuminist]

What we need is bigger fines imposed for people who litter. The amount of time I still see people throw a cigarette out of the car window.

We could also do with more recycling room at home. I have asked before from the council for an extra recycle bin or a larger one but have been told that I can't have one. I usually have to stand in the bin to squash it all down a bit more by middle of the 2nd week.

Tell them it's damaged or been stolen.
Mine went missing for a week because a neighbor took it by mistake, i told the council and they dropped off a brand new one, then my neighbor must have wheeled it back to the front of my house. Now i have 2

 

[davejh666]

Tell them it's damaged or been stolen.
Mine went missing for a week because a neighbor took it by mistake, i told the council and they dropped off a brand new one, then my neighbor must have wheeled it back to the front of my house. Now i have 2

Oh, now there's a thought. Did they not charge you for it?

The thing I find stupid about it is we literally recycle everything we can. I stand on everything to squash it all down. But with basically 3 adults and 2 kids, a dog and other pets we fill it by the end of the first week. I quite often go down the tidy tip with recycle stuff part way through the week, but that is hard with Covid as our tidy tip you need to book an time slot, minimum of 5 days (I think it is 5 days, might be 3), in advance.

 

[adolf hamster]

the argument that simply replacing a better recycling system with a worse recycling system will inevitably and by itself cause an increase in recycling.

You say the german system is worse, but their streets are cleaner than ours.....

 

[Angilion]

You say the german system is worse, but their streets are cleaner than ours.....

Yes. I have also said, repeatedly, that the problem is the people who don't use the facilities that are available. What makes you think that those people would use a less convenient (and less efficient and more expensive) system when they won't use a more convenient one?

How is littering perceived socially in Germany?
How is littering treated in German law? As it's implemented, not as it's written.
Would the proposed UK system be exactly the same as the German system, including the same degree of reusing rather than recycling?
How do you explain the difference when it comes to the multitude of material that wouldn't be covered by such a scheme anyway?

Littering is common custom in the UK. It sounds like it isn't in Germany. The claim that the sole reason for that difference is that Germany has a less convenient system for recycling is unsubstantiated and doesn't seem likely. In most circumstances, making something less convenient to use doesn't greatly encourage its use.

 

[chrcoluk]

You say the german system is worse, but their streets are cleaner than ours.....

The streets around here most of the litter is empty can and things like empty crisp/sweet packets, probably from people walking around and not caring. I think this is a culture problem, I dont see how this would fix that, I would be very surprised if anyone here would bother walking the streets looking for the odd can here or there.

 

[chaparral]

The streets around here most of the litter is empty can and things like empty crisp/sweet packets, probably from people walking around and not caring. I think this is a culture problem, I dont see how this would fix that, I would be very surprised if anyone here would bother walking the streets looking for the odd can here or there.

I really no understand how some people can just walk along and drop there cans, bottles, chip paper/holder, etc, etc and think nothing of it ....

Many times you get a group of people that had a day at the beach and then just get up and walk off leaving all there rubbish behind

I couldn't even do that if I tried..

 

[adolf hamster]

The streets around here most of the litter is empty can and things like empty crisp/sweet packets, probably from people walking around and not caring. I think this is a culture problem, I dont see how this would fix that, I would be very surprised if anyone here would bother walking the streets looking for the odd can here or there.

i dunno, 20p a can your local homeless could collect a couple dozen cans would buy him lunch.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

You say the german system is worse, but their streets are cleaner than ours.....

You probably live in an affluent part or area within Germany. Is it similar in East Germany or east Berlin?

 

[MikeTimbers]

There is legislation approved in Scotland. It will go into effect on July 1st 2021 according to the current planning. Wales doesn't want to run any similar scheme as it claims to be the 3rd most efficient recycling country in the world. England and NI will be watching Scotland and likely to follow the same rules if it works in Scotland.

You can read the Scottish legislation here

In this legislation, Section 21, c states "(2) Subject to paragraph (3), a retailer that has sold a scheme article through a distance retail sale must provide a takeback service free of charge to the consumer that purchased the scheme article." (emphasis added by me)

So, you buy something on line, they can charge to deliver it but not to collect it. At least, not to the consumer. They are allowed to charge the scheme administrator a reasonable fee. "(3) A retailer providing a takeback service may apply a charge not exceeding the cost of materials used in respect of the collection and storage of that scheme packaging". In this section the "charge" is applied to the scheme not the consumer.

Each retailer is only required to collect from the consumer's address the items sold online by that retailer. This will lead to each retailer having to track customer sales and sort out through the returned items to make sure they are theirs etc. This may increase recycling but it doesn't seem environmentally friendly.

Look, I'm not defending the legislation. I agree it's ill-though out. None of the retailers like it either. It might increase recycling but good advertising could have done that and litter is the council's job to collect. Empty bins more regularly and there's less litter.

 

[Vulcan]

So a small brewery or similar who has decided to embrace the modern age, and trying to make a bigger cut and sell online direct to it's customers, now has to find some way of retrieving all the bottles or cans back off the customer. Basically buying a van and driving all around Scotland collecting the waste. Crazy.

(3) Where an article is sold or is to be sold to a consumer in Scotland, the article is to be treated for the purpose of these Regulations as having been marketed or offered for retail sale, or sold by way of retail sale, in Scotland regardless of whether the retailer has a registered or principal office in Scotland, or where the site of sale is.

So it seems to apply to any company, any where in the world, as long as they send to Scotland?

 

[MikeTimbers]

So a small brewery or similar who has decided to embrace the modern age, and trying to make a bigger cut and sell online direct to it's customers, now has to find some way of retrieving all the bottles or cans back off the customer. Basically buying a van and driving all around Scotland collecting the waste. Crazy.

Indeed. In all likelihood however, the kind of customer who buys specialist beer will understand that while they could ask the brewery to pick up the empties, they could also simply return the empties to any reverse vending machine at any time. I personally doubt that the kind of people who will want their money back will be demanding collection which might not be for some time and they will simply go to the local supermarket when they have enough to make it worthwhile.

So it seems to apply to any company, any where in the world, as long as they send to Scotland?

imported and exported goods are excluded from the scheme. However, if a company imports goods for resale they are included.

 

[arknor]

What we need is bigger fines imposed for people who litter. The amount of time I still see people throw a cigarette out of the car window.

We could also do with more recycling room at home. I have asked before from the council for an extra recycle bin or a larger one but have been told that I can't have one. I usually have to stand in the bin to squash it all down a bit more by middle of the 2nd week.

we could also do with more bins not less, it seems councils remove bins because they are to popular these days..... rather than thinking "oh we chose a good spot"

barely ever see those machines cleaning the streets either, they used to be everywhere in the 90s, and I remember council people walking around collecting litter on foot from bushes etc as well.

seems they don't bother since 2008 austerity cuts.
tbh cigarette butts are probably one of the least disgusting things people throw in the streets and you hardly notice them.

fast food packaging is way worse imo and masks

 

[chrcoluk]

we could also do with more bins not less, it seems councils remove bins because they are to popular these days..... rather than thinking "oh we chose a good spot"

barely ever see those machines cleaning the streets either, they used to be everywhere in the 90s, and I remember council people walking around collecting litter on foot from bushes etc as well.

seems they don't bother since 2008 austerity cuts.
tbh cigarette butts are probably one of the least disgusting things people throw in the streets and you hardly notice them.

fast food packaging is way worse imo and masks

My council still does litter pickers, they around early in the morning for me. Usually weekends.