Shoppers 'to be charged 20p on plastic bottles & Metal Cans under return scheme

[Angilion]

Fringe benefit of this sort of scheme is it is incentivising people to clean up littered items, so even if the person who originally bought the item doesn't care about getting cashback, you get a second chance via kids etc.

I think society has changed too much for it to happen again.

When I was a boy, it was normal for children to be out all day roaming around, usually on bikes and often covering miles. When I was in my early teens, maybe a little earlier, I often cycled ~40 miles just to visit the seaside and play the penny arcade games. Even as a younger child, I often spent hours out and about on my own exploring the nearby countryside (we lived near the edge of a town) or around town. The countryside seemed immense to me, but that was when I was 6 or 7. It was probably a few square kilometres. The next town was close.

Things are different now. Even with mobile phones (which only existed in sci fi when I was a boy), most parents have been taught to be too scared to allow their children that much freedom. I think they have some reason to be more scared, though not as much as they have been taught.

Also, when I was a boy the deposit on glass bottles was a lot more money than 20p is today. IIRC it was 5p per bottle back then, but my pocket money was 50p a week and that was a reasonable amount for the time. So a single bottle returned was a 10% increase to my income. 5p would get you as many as 20 sweets when I was a boy. Or a kit to make a model aircraft made out of polystyrene and powered by a rubber band, which was one of the best small toys I remember from those days. You could get many different ones. Which were pretty much the same one with different markings, but add a 6 year old imagination and they were all the planes of the world! What use is 20p to a child nowadays? You'd have to collect 50 littered bottles to even buy a small top-up for your phone, which might buy you 1 or 2 outfits for a character in a game.

Different times. Better in some ways, worse in others. But definitely different.


As an aside, years later I found out that the seaside place where I played as a young teen was close to thousands of tonnes of explosives in a sunken ship very close to shore and on mudflats that are part of a dangerous tidal range on which the shoreline varies by kilometres from tide to tide.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20151027-the-ticking-time-bomb-of-the-thames

By a very odd chance, the first person I shared the story with (many years later and way up north from my childhood home) after having read about the ship somewhere happened to have been a navy diver when they were younger and had been one of the people who had examined the wreck as part of one of the investigations into finding a way of safely removing it. That takes courage - to dive to a sunken ship knowing that it's full of explosives when nobody was sure how immersion in sea water would affect the stability of the explosives. I was seriously impressed. Not by the diving (it's very shallow, partially above water at low tide) but by the willingness to investigate a couple of thousand tonnes of various bombs. Nobody's come up with a way of safe way of disposing of it yet, so it's still there. Probably safe now, after all these years under water. Probably. Or maybe not.

 

[chrcoluk]

Angilion your story reminds of when I Was a teenager as well, we was on holiday in Norfolk. I hired a bike for a few hours or a day cannot remember how long, and I managed to ride all the way to the coast from the place we were staying at, my dad asked me where I said Caister on Sea, and he was genuinely surprised how long it took to drive there saying that was quite a distance.

Back at home in the city used to go for long bike rides along the canal routes in the summer.

 

[Angilion]

How many of those successful European implementations have been in circumstances where they replace or compete with an existing kerbside recycling scheme rather than going from no coordinated recycling scheme to a deposit scheme?

If 45% of our plastic bottles aren't getting recycled because people can't be arsed to use 2 bins that are already at their own house, 20p per bottle isn't going to change behaviour on a significant level.

As @redeye put it:

[quoting someone in Germany who explicitly stated that the odd few pennies here and there is no motivation at all and they do it because everyone else does, to be a good German]

It's not even the money that motivates him to do it, it's the sense of social responsibility that exists there that doesn't exist here, seemingly.

That's a key point, I think.

We already have a simpler, cheaper, more efficient and far more convenient recycling system. Replacing it with a more expensive system that's far less convenient to use is hardly likely to increase use. The problem is social, not practical. People who won't recycle when all they have to do is put the stuff in a box outside their house are not going to eagerly save up dirty bottles and take them to the shop. Replacing a more convenient system with a less convenient system is not an effective way to encourage use of the system. All it does is penalise people who already recycle. It's a bad idea.

 

[mid_gen]

I haven't been to the super market where the majority of my shopping comes from in about 5/6 years! the council sends a convenient van fortnightly to take my can's and bottles for recycling, I just don't see how this legislation has been thought through by anyone involved

If you get your groceries delivered in Germany, they take away your empties. Not rocket science.

 

[mid_gen]

You're relying on these same people deciding it's now worth carrying around an empty bottle to take it home later (which might be hours away), store it for a week or two and then take it back to the shop, all for another 20p back off their next shopping bill. I'll be amazed if they do it in significant numbers. To get a fiver back on your shopping you'll be needing to bring back 25 cans/bottles. The sort of person who can't even bring themselves to use a bin, isn't going to start carrying rubbish around because it's worth 20p.

These people need a much bigger incentive and preferably one that doesn't collaterally impact people who already recycle well.

If the person can't be bothered to take home the bottle to recycle it, they just leave it next to a bin and someone will pick it up and claim the pfand.

Bottles and cans just don't exist as litter in Germany, because people go around collecting them.

Sitting by the river in the evening having a few bottles, there'll be guys hanging around with bags full of bottles and they'll take it off you soon as you finish it.

It works for everyone tbh, great system. But needs the infrastructure in place.

 

[Kenai]

If the person can't be bothered to take home the bottle to recycle it, they just leave it next to a bin and someone will pick it up and claim the pfand.

Why will they? If they'd currently rather just throw it on the floor than take it to a bin? A sudden overwhelming sense of community spirit?

 

[a1ex2001]

If you get your groceries delivered in Germany, they take away your empties. Not rocket science.

Do they take all bottles and cans or just ones previously delivered by them? If just those delivered by them then that is another fail as suddenly I have to have even more boxes full of rubbish as I have to Separate by supplier! I’m massively pro recycling but this scheme is horribly flawed! Does it date back to Gove’s time in the environment post it would fit perfectly with his bring back the 50’s vibe.

 

[mid_gen]

Why will they? If they'd currently rather just throw it on the floor than take it to a bin? A sudden overwhelming sense of community spirit?

Even if they just drop it on the floor, someone will pick it up in a few minutes. That's why the system works so well.

You're absolutely right that some people just don't care and will litter no matter what, so with a deposit system you make them pay for other people to clean up after them.

 

[mid_gen]

Do they take all bottles and cans or just ones previously delivered by them? If just those delivered by them then that is another fail as suddenly I have to have even more boxes full of rubbish as I have to Separate by supplier! I’m massively pro recycling but this scheme is horribly flawed! Does it date back to Gove’s time in the environment post it would fit perfectly with his bring back the 50’s vibe.

You'll typically buy your drinks in crates, so they just take the crate back. If you've got loose random collection of pfand, you can just put them on the street if you can't be bothered to recycle them yourself, and let someone else do it.

Wine bottles etc just go in bottle banks. You're usually not more than a couple hundred metres from one, same with your cardboard.

You still have kerbside recycling, three bins, organic waste, trash, and other plastic/metal recycling.

 

[a1ex2001]

You'll typically buy your drinks in crates, so they just take the crate back. If you've got loose random collection of pfand, you can just put them on the street if you can't be bothered to recycle them yourself, and let someone else do it.

Wine bottles etc just go in bottle banks. You're usually not more than a couple hundred metres from one, same with your cardboard.

You still have kerbside recycling, three bins, organic waste, trash, and other plastic/metal recycling.

so we need a load of extra infrastructure in a country that has never invested in recycling infra? Another classic of tax the public and blame them for the inability of our administrators to do what other countries managed a decade or too ago.

 

[Kenai]

Even if they just drop it on the floor, someone will pick it up in a few minutes. That's why the system works so well.

You're absolutely right that some people just don't care and will litter no matter what, so with a deposit system you make them pay for other people to clean up after them.

There's an argument in there about potential for exploitation of the less well off if a side effect is to have people going about as cut price litter pickers to save a few quid on their shopping. Sure a few socially responsible do gooders will do it but wide scale, the majority of the people who will be supposedly roaming the streets looking for 20p bottles are going to be the desperate and disadvantaged.

As for who pays, whilst these people will obviously get penalised for not reclaiming their deposit, so will I, either through my time or my money. Because a bunch of feckless wasters can't be bothered to put their rubbish in the right bin, now I'll have to start carting half of mine back to the shops instead or get fined. There's absolutely zero sense there.

Why does the responsibility for the poor behaviour of others have to land at the doorstep of those who already do what's needed?

 

[mid_gen]

There's an argument in there about potential for exploitation of the less well off if a side effect is to have people going about as cut price litter pickers to save a few quid on their shopping. Sure a few socially responsible do gooders will do it but wide scale, the majority of the people who will be supposedly roaming the streets looking for 20p bottles are going to be the desperate and disadvantaged.

Definitely an argument to be had there. But better people are able to feed themselves by picking up recycling that other people are too lazy to do themselves, than just begging.

As for who pays, whilst these people will obviously get penalised for not reclaiming their deposit, so will I, either through my time or my money. Because a bunch of feckless wasters can't be bothered to put their rubbish in the right bin, now I'll have to start carting half of mine back to the shops instead or get fined. There's absolutely zero sense there.

Why does the responsibility for the poor behaviour of others have to land at the doorstep of those who already do what's needed?

Germans have a markedly stronger sense of community and don't mind doing what it right for the benefit of the community even if there's a cost to them. I guess there are question marks about whether people in this country is capable of actually doing something for the benefit of the community that doesn't directly benefit themselves. Although you would think that not having a country covered in litter would be reward enough.

Not that taking your pfand back to the supermarket is a big chore, it's just part of your normal routine, don't even think about it. It's not any more or less inconvenient than sorting out my kerbside recycling here tbh.

 

[mid_gen]

so we need a load of extra infrastructure in a country that has never invested in recycling infra? Another classic of tax the public and blame them for the inability of our administrators to do what other countries managed a decade or too ago.

The deposit scheme doesn't cost you anything, if you recycle. Although there are usually charity donation boxes next to the machine and I'd usually just stick the ticket in one of them and donate to a local cause.

 

[Greebo]

20 years too late in my opinion.

30 years ago they did this on Crete when we were on,y holiday. 500ml of lager in the local shop cost 24p and you got 8p for an empty bottle so when you went back you got a full bottle for free for every 3 empty ones.

at the end of the holiday we couldn’t be bothered carrying the last batch down into town though and left around 50 empty bottles for the next guest to get some freebies.

 

[Em3bbs]

Germans have a markedly stronger sense of community and don't mind doing what it right for the benefit of the community even if there's a cost to them.

You only have to look at some of the responses here to see why things like this are more difficult to implement in the UK. ME ME ME!!! WAHHH IT'S GOING TO CAUSE ME MINOR INCONVENIENCE!!!

I remember when I moved to Munich in 1999 and at that point was used to *no* recycling where I lived in the UK, so it was somewhat of a culture shock going from nothing to recycling and pfand (although as you say the kerbside collections still happen). But once I saw how little rubbish there was compared to the UK and saw the level of recycling that is done I realised it was worth it.

 

[Kenai]

You only have to look at some of the responses here to see why things like this are more difficult to implement in the UK. ME ME ME!!! WAHHH IT'S GOING TO CAUSE ME MINOR INCONVENIENCE!!!

Because trying to get across the idea that inconveniencing the majority to accommodate the poor behaviour of the minority seemingly wasn't really resonating much, so the argument has switched to more personal terms. The point is less about 'oh the inconvenience' rather 'why replace a convenient scheme with an inconvenient one and then force people to use it by financial penalty?'. Especially so when there remains considerable room for improvement of the existing scheme, rather than fragmenting the recycling effort into multiple difference collection streams.

Every time we discuss comparative European schemes it seems to circle back to how they have a better community spirit which is actually what drives the better behaviour anyway.

On the personal level there's not been much to justify why people who do recycle already ought to be impacted at all by any change other than "you should just accept the cost to yourself because community spirit".

 

[b0rn2sk8]

The key difference is the German and most other European countries bottles are also reused, not recycled. Reuse is a far better solution than having to take bottles back to the supermarket who just chuck them in the dumpster of plastic on your behalf. It’s a waste of time and effort for little gain.

Bottles and cans make up the minority of litter out in the wild. It’s mainly other lite plastic (e.g. crisp packets) and takeaway (e.g. McDonald’s) containers.

 

[pastymuncher]

One more problem that this is going to create is that up here Councils have recycling targets to hit. We currently recycle everything which goes into our various recycling wheelie bins which then get emptied every three weeks. This scheme will make it too expensive for us not to follow it so that will be one full big wheelie bin less every three weeks. If everybody follows suit household recycling for kerbside collection is going to fall dramatically and the council will get nowhere near their target for which I believe they can be financially penalised when they get their yearly budget.

 

[a1ex2001]

The deposit scheme doesn't cost you anything, if you recycle. Although there are usually charity donation boxes next to the machine and I'd usually just stick the ticket in one of them and donate to a local cause.

It does cost me something as I have to separate and store my rubbish before making a special trip to claim my refund, if there are to be more recycling points this will cost the consumer money, if the supermarkets have to collect the recycling with home deliveries this will cost the consumer more money. If we were all still going to super markets for a weekly shop then I could understand it but it just feels like such a backwards step when we should be doing something forward thinking.

 

[d_brennen]

It's a bad idea in the UK. Everywhere around me has recycling collections already, and have done for ages, can't actually remember how long. So I'd have to pay extra to coerce others to do the right thing? I'd rather legislation forces manufacturers and retailers to use less, more recyclable materials and local authorities to provide better facilities.

Do you really need donuts in a plastic tray? A paper bag is fine