Should UK self-defence laws be reformed?

you not thinking from what 99 percent of the people carrying it will actually do. have pepper spray cs gas use it against people to then do whatever they want to them. thats why its not allowed. robberies muggings would go up 1000 percent.
You would imagine it would be classified as armed robbery / aggravated assault though if they used any type of weapon. I don’t think criminals will just randomly spray people from the get go. They’d do what they do now, which is threaten first.

It wouldn’t be the first resort due to the potential sentence if they’re caught (setting aside the likelihood of them being caught in the first place).
 
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you not thinking from what 99 percent of the people carrying it will actually do. have pepper spray cs gas use it against people to then do whatever they want to them. thats why its not allowed. robberies muggings would go up 1000 percent.

Really? So 99% of the over 70s, seriously disabled, women living/working in areas with high rates of rape/sexual assault and certified "at-risk" people (who have passed a background check/have no criminal record) and were given Police permission to carry it for self-defence will suddenly become robbers and muggers? I doubt it.

Robbery/sexual assault using a weapon etc are serious criminal offences so the person doing them is usually already in a criminal lifestyle. I cannot see respectable people becoming violent criminals just because they legally possess a pepper spray in a public place.

Any robbers, rapists, etc are already prepared to commit serious violent crimes so why would they be put off from illegally carrying a pepper spray if they thought it might help them commit their crimes? (They can be bought legally abroad and smuggled in, so it's not as if they are impossible to get here.)
 
You would imagine it would be classified as armed robbery / aggravated assault though if they used any type of weapon. I don’t think criminals will just randomly spray people from the get go. They’d do what they do now, which is threaten first.

It wouldn’t be the first resort due to the potential sentence if they’re caught (setting aside the likelihood of them being caught in the first place).
the people committing these types of crimes dont think like that. its just done. thats what most normal people dont get. they arent thinking with logic often drug addicts or people in bad areas after money. whats easier robbing someone ? trying to do it while they have full capacity to fight back ? or being sprayed in face and unable to fight back ?
 
Really? So 99% of the over 70s, seriously disabled, women living/working in areas with high rates of rape/sexual assault and certified "at-risk" people (who have passed a background check/have no criminal record) and were given Police permission to carry it for self-defence will suddenly become robbers and muggers? I doubt it.

Robbery/sexual assault using a weapon etc are serious criminal offences so the person doing them is usually already in a criminal lifestyle. I cannot see respectable people becoming violent criminals just because they legally possess a pepper spray in a public place.

Any robbers, rapists, etc are already prepared to commit serious violent crimes so why would they be put off from illegally carrying a pepper spray if they thought it might help them commit their crimes? (They can be bought legally abroad and smuggled in, so it's not as if they are impossible to get here.)
look lets not be silly about it.. old age pensioners are not going to be doing that. pointless even saying it. who are going to commit crimes with the items being discussed ? the same people who will now have easier access to them because they legal. you are literally giving people a easier reason to commit a crime. this is why you see all countries who allow guns have the highest incidents. you arm people you will have more incidents. simple.
 
look lets not be silly about it.. old age pensioners are not going to be doing that. pointless even saying it. who are going to commit crimes with the items being discussed ? the same people who will now have easier access to them because they legal.

My proposal is that possession would be regulated, not legal for anyone who just wants it, so only for people who meet certain criteria. You would not be able to buy them from a shop or online, it would all be done through the Police.

you are literally giving people a easier reason to commit a crime. this is why you see all countries who allow guns have the highest incidents. you arm people you will have more incidents. simple.

This is not relevant to the idea I proposed. I am not suggesting we make possession of pepper spray legal for everyone. A US style CCW (Concealed Carry Weapon) license for pepper spray possession could work. They have compulsory training courses, Police oversight and background/criminal record checks for all CCW applicants.
 
You would imagine it would be classified as armed robbery / aggravated assault though if they used any type of weapon. I don’t think criminals will just randomly spray people from the get go. They’d do what they do now, which is threaten first.

They don't have to actually use the weapon for it to be classed as armed robbery, just threaten to use it. Unlike with a knife where using it means a good chance of a murder charge (assuming they get caught), spraying someone in the face to incapacitate them is a lot "safer".

My proposal is that possession would be regulated, not legal for anyone who just wants it, so only for people who meet certain criteria. You would not be able to buy them from a shop or online, it would all be done through the Police.

It's still putting thousands more weapons "on the streets" though. A can of pepper spray isn't going to stop 80 year old Mabel from getting her bag snatched by a kid on a moped, and now that kid on the moped is armed with a can of pepper spray. If anything it would increase the number of attacks on those vulnerable people, because of the high chance of getting a weapon from them.

The problem is, the criminal always has the element of surprise, they have the benefit of having the knife/spray/crowbar/etc. in their hand, ready to use. Even in the best case scenario, where the person they're attacking doesn't freeze/panic, they still have to fumble around in their handbag/pocket/holster/etc., open the knife/remove safety/etc. in order to use it to defend themselves. That's plenty of time for them to have already been kicked/punched/stabbed/sprayed/smacked in the head/etc.

This is not relevant to the idea I proposed. I am not suggesting we make possession of pepper spray legal for everyone. A US style CCW (Concealed Carry Weapon) license for pepper spray possession could work. They have compulsory training courses, Police oversight and background/criminal record checks for all CCW applicants.

Because that works really well in the USA, and no criminals are able to get their hands on weapons?
 
A functional police force would be great but doesn’t solve the self-defence problem since they’re not always going to get there in time to stop you getting stabbed / beaten up / whatever.

Neither is arming yourself. Most people on this forum couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag with or without a legal or illegal weapon. Adding more weapons into the game isn’t going to help anyone.
 
Most people on this forum couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag with or without a legal or illegal weapon. Adding more weapons into the game isn’t going to help anyone.
That’s rather the point of at least having an option.

At the end of the day nobody can say what would or wouldn’t happen but if this forum is representative then it will never happen anyway as people don’t want it, so it’s a bit of a moot point.
 
You can already own guns here. The changes happened after the Dunblane massacre but if you pass enough checks and have a valid reason you can even own a semi-automatic .22LR rifle.

Allowing more weapons into society will not solve the problem, it will exacerbate it.
 
It's still putting thousands more weapons "on the streets" though. A can of pepper spray isn't going to stop 80 year old Mabel from getting her bag snatched by a kid on a moped, and now that kid on the moped is armed with a can of pepper spray. If anything it would increase the number of attacks on those vulnerable people, because of the high chance of getting a weapon from them.

It's only a can of pepper spray though. It's not a deadly weapon or one that can maim. The toerag on the moped could just as easily carry a kitchen knife (also illegally) which is far more dangerous.

Also, if someone is too frail/mentally slow to pass the training course and have adequate "situational awareness" then they would not be given permission to do it. There would also have to be a requirement to carry the pepper spray in such a way (perhaps in a concealed body-worn holster) so that it could not be stolen incidentally if someone's bag/handbag was nicked.

The problem is, the criminal always has the element of surprise, they have the benefit of having the knife/spray/crowbar/etc. in their hand, ready to use. Even in the best case scenario, where the person they're attacking doesn't freeze/panic, they still have to fumble around in their handbag/pocket/holster/etc., open the knife/remove safety/etc. in order to use it to defend themselves. That's plenty of time for them to have already been kicked/punched/stabbed/sprayed/smacked in the head/etc.

Yes, you can think of scenarios where an innocent law-abiding legally armed person might not have the chance to use their weapon in lawful righteous self-defence all day. It strikes me that in the scenario you describe an unarmed person would still have received a good beating. So your advice is basically let people get beaten up/robbed/raped etc because fighting back is too dangerous and the perpetrator is likely to be too well prepared. Got it! Thanks for your input.

And who said anything about legally allowing people to carry a knife for self-defence? We're talking about pepper spray (a non-lethal immobilisation weapon).

Basically, your attitude guarantees that the professional criminal is always in the driving seat and that innocent law-abiding people should not attempt to fight back, but should instead collaborate in their own victimisation to avoid being hurt. People who commit violent crimes/armed robbery/rape are not bothered about breaking weapons possession laws because they are looking at a much longer prison sentence for their primary crimes anyway. It's only the "good guys" who are deterred from carrying a weapon for self-defence (even if they need it) because that would be their only crime if picked up by the Police and prosecuted.

Because that works really well in the USA, and no criminals are able to get their hands on weapons?

That is a non sequitur. The CCW (Concealed Carry Weapon) licensing system that operates in US states has nothing to do with preventing the legal purchase of a firearm. In most US states/cities you can buy a pistol legally without any legal impediment as long as you submit to a background check and have suitable ID to prove you are of legal age (although there is usually a waiting period before you can collect it). The CCW permit allows you to carry a concealed pistol legally in public places (with a few exceptions) for the express purpose of self-defence.

If we had a CCW licensing system for pepper spray it would also cover possession of it, not just the carrying of it in public places.

But, of course, none of this will ever happen in the UK. Because in Britain people expect the government to solve their problems and would be appalled at the idea that they might have to do something themselves. The most common headline on the BBC News website is: "Is the government doing enough about [X]".

In Britain we lose our rights as citizens all the time (mostly due to ill-informed media-led moral panics and opportunistic politicians) and we NEVER get them back. I suppose it comes from being an authoritarian hierarchical society with little respect for individualism.


You can already own guns here. The changes happened after the Dunblane massacre but if you pass enough checks and have a valid reason you can even own a semi-automatic .22LR rifle.

Allowing more weapons into society will not solve the problem, it will exacerbate it.

This is irrelevant. You cannot tell the Police in the UK that you want a firearm for self-defence when you apply for a SGC/FAC. They will bin your application immediately and put you on their blacklist!

Loaded firearms cannot be legally carried in public in the UK by civilians under any circumstances. You can only legally transport a rifle from your home to a range etc by a direct route, while it is secure, concealed and unloaded. Legal civilian possession of firearms in this country was disconnected from lawful self-defence against violent crime many decades ago (back in the 1950s if memory serves).

(Edited for an irritating typo.)
 
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This is irrelevant. You cannot tell the Police in the UK that you want a firearm for self-defence when you apply for a SGC/FAC. They will bin your application immediately and put you on their blacklist!

Loaded firearms cannot be legally carried in public in the UK by civilians under any circumstances. You can only legally transport a rifle from your home to a range etc by a direct route, while it is secure, concealed and unloaded. Legal civilian possession of firearms in this country was disconnected from lawful self-defence against violent crime many decades ago (back in the 1950s if memory serves).

(Edited for an irritating typo.)
I'm not sure what your point is, I never said they could be carried in public (transported, as you point out, can be).

Relaxing rules will not help.
 
Basically, your attitude guarantees that the professional criminal is always in the driving seat and that innocent law-abiding people should not attempt to fight back, but should instead collaborate in their own victimisation to avoid being hurt.

No, my "attitude" is not wanting to put more weapons in the hands of criminals through a poorly thought out knee-jerk policy designed to make people "feel safer" whilst in actual reality making very little difference to the situation (in fact making it worse if anything)

Yes, you can think of scenarios where an innocent law-abiding legally armed person might not have the chance to use their weapon in lawful righteous self-defence all day.

Can you give a realistic scenario in which they would?
 
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That’s rather the point of at least having an option.

At the end of the day nobody can say what would or wouldn’t happen but if this forum is representative then it will never happen anyway as people don’t want it, so it’s a bit of a moot point.

You misunderstand, even with the option, most people are going to be in trouble. In fact, add in the option, and suddenly any aggressor is going to disarm you and use said option on you, or bring their own options.

Better that the non-fighters of OcUK not try and pretend that having a weapon will help them, and admit that when presented by a dangerous confrontation, a decent pair of shoes you can run in and an ability to call 999 for help from the state that is meant to protect you is the only real workable option.
 
I wouldn't trust any of you lot with a gun for "self defence".

The hopes and dreams of being a hero vs the constant dribble of increased severity of criminal acts and charges because having a clean sheet is everyones default position.

Raising the risks doesn't stop bad things happening. Jail doesn't deter crime. The literal death penalty doesn't deter murders.
 
Neither is arming yourself. Most people on this forum couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag with or without a legal or illegal weapon. Adding more weapons into the game isn’t going to help anyone.

What sort of paper bag are we talking about? The old white sweet shop kind or a sturdy brown primark bag?

If people could carry knives, they'd be better able to free themselves, so you've undermined your own argument there.
 
No, my "attitude" is not wanting to put more weapons in the hands of criminals through a poorly thought out knee-jerk policy designed to make people "feel safer" whilst in actual reality making very little difference to the situation (in fact making it worse if anything)

Your personal opinions do not constitute facts or empirical evidence.

Pepper spray is available for use by vulnerable civilians only for self-defence in many countries. Its ownership is regulated in some countries with licensing schemes and is unregulated in others. For example, Israel used to require someone to have a Firearm Certificate to legally own pepper spray, but they relaxed that requirement many years ago. In 2003, Western Australia decriminalised its use for self-defence with a "reasonable excuse". Interestingly, despite your concerns, there has NOT been an explosion in violent crime in any of these countries because civilians are permitted to own it for self-defence.

And if we are talking about poorly thought out knee-jerk policies, the way the British government routinely bans things due to the actions of a tiny minority of total scumbags is a textbook example of that phenomenon. I hear they are going to ban machetes next because of the fondness that some feral gangbangers have for carrying them (despite the carrying of them already being illegal). A machete is a very useful gardening tool. Have you ever tried cutting up a 30 foot tall Leylandii tree without one? As if banning an Iron Age era weapon is going to stop drug-dealing street criminals who routinely maim and kill people from getting hold of them!

Can you give a realistic scenario in which they would?

You're joking, right? For your information, I have been threatened/attacked on multiple occasions by armed criminals on the streets at night. Having a legal weapon which would have allowed me to temporarily blind them and escape would have been very useful in those situations.

Despite all your erudite theoretical arguments, I was aware shortly before these incidents that something was about to happen and if I had a pepper spray in a body-worn holster I would have had time to retrieve it, conceal it and make it ready for use. But I don't suppose you'll be interested in knowing any of this. Like most people you have a dogmatic opinion on this issue which is immune to facts and logic.

If pepper spray is so ineffective for temporarily neutralising violent criminals then why is it issued to all on-the-beat Police Officers?
 
You're joking, right? For your information, I have been threatened/attacked on multiple occasions by armed criminals on the streets at night...

Despite all your erudite theoretical arguments, I was aware shortly before these incidents that something was about to happen...

Multiple occasions? Jeez, where do you live?

In all my years, living in some pretty dodgy areas, I've never been threatened with a weapon. There have been a few confrontations, some gave escalated, but it's never involved a weapon.
 
Your personal opinions do not constitute facts or empirical evidence.

Pepper spray is available for use by vulnerable civilians only for self-defence in many countries. Its ownership is regulated in some countries with licensing schemes and is unregulated in others. For example, Israel used to require someone to have a Firearm Certificate to legally own pepper spray, but they relaxed that requirement many years ago. In 2003, Western Australia decriminalised its use for self-defence with a "reasonable excuse". Interestingly, despite your concerns, there has NOT been an explosion in violent crime in any of these countries because civilians are permitted to own it for self-defence.

And yet we can look at countries like the USA, and the ease of access to and number of weapons, and the amount of violent crime...

It's also a cultural thing, and sadly I feel culturally we are far closer to the US than Australia or Israel :(

And if we are talking about poorly thought out knee-jerk policies, the way the British government routinely bans things due to the actions of a tiny minority of total scumbags is a textbook example of that phenomenon. I hear they are going to ban machetes next because of the fondness that some feral gangbangers have for carrying them (despite the carrying of them already being illegal). A machete is a very useful gardening tool. Have you ever tried cutting up a 30 foot tall Leylandii tree without one? As if banning an Iron Age era weapon is going to stop drug-dealing street criminals who routinely maim and kill people from getting hold of them!

I'm not disagreeing with you there, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

You're joking, right? For your information, I have been threatened/attacked on multiple occasions by armed criminals on the streets at night. Having a legal weapon which would have allowed me to temporarily blind them and escape would have been very useful in those situations.

Despite all your erudite theoretical arguments, I was aware shortly before these incidents that something was about to happen and if I had a pepper spray in a body-worn holster I would have had time to retrieve it, conceal it and make it ready for use.

I'm interested in where you live that means that's a regular thing, considering I live in Birmingham and haven't once had any issues like that (I had significantly more trouble living in Bath which by all accounts is a "nice place" :p), but fair enough, yes it can help in some situations, although I can also see the other side of it which is that if those armed criminals had reason to believe you had a weapon of your own, they would perhaps have given you less warning/opportunity to prepare it.

But I don't suppose you'll be interested in knowing any of this. Like most people you have a dogmatic opinion on this issue which is immune to facts and logic.

Quite the opposite, I can see both sides of the argument, and applying facts and logic (and my own personal experiences), leads me to believe that it would cause more problems than it would solve. I'm all for allowing use of weapons in situations such as home invasions, where a) assuming you already have reasonable security measures in place you should get some warning that someone is breaking in, allowing you to prepare, and b) you potentially have no means of escape.

If pepper spray is so ineffective for temporarily neutralising violent criminals then why is it issued to all on-the-beat Police Officers?

Where have I said it's ineffective? Police officers - by the very nature of their job - are expected to deal with troublesome individuals, and subdue them for arrest if necessary.

Besides, that's a poor example, as they routinely end up also hitting themselves with the spray (and are trained to deal with this).

Think about how stupid the general public are for a moment, spraying yourself in the face because the wind was blowing the wrong way isn't going to help much (unless the would be mugger is so busy laughing and feeling sorry for you that they decide to let you off :cry:)
 
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Multiple occasions? Jeez, where do you live?

In all my years, living in some pretty dodgy areas, I've never been threatened with a weapon. There have been a few confrontations, some gave escalated, but it's never involved a weapon.

Well, you're very lucky then. Fortunately, I don't live in a bad area now, but as a skint undergraduate/postgraduate student (you tend to get more hassle as a student from the locals) I had to live in grotty rooms in cheap HMOs in Benwell/Byker in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Highfield in Sheffield and Tang Hall in York. Also, for a couple of years I was as an employee of a new start-up Biotechnology company where I had to live in a run-down post-industrial town in rural Northumberland with high unemployment and a lot of low-level crime/anti-social behaviour/juvenile street gangs and alcohol/drug abuse. (The weapons I mentioned were kitchen knives, scaffolding poles and pipes not firearms by the way.)

And yet we can look at countries like the USA, and the ease of access to and number of weapons, and the amount of violent crime...

A bit of perspective would come in handy. We're talking about pepper spray not firearms.

It's also a cultural thing, and sadly I feel culturally we are far closer to the US than Australia or Israel :(

It's not just those two examples though. There are many other countries which allow pepper spray (regulated and unregulated) and it has not caused an epidemic of criminal pepper spray attacks.

I'm interested in where you live that means that's a regular thing, considering I live in Birmingham and haven't once had any issues like that (I had significantly more trouble living in Bath which by all accounts is a "nice place" :p), but fair enough, yes it can help in some situations, although I can also see the other side of it which is that if those armed criminals had reason to believe you had a weapon of your own, they would perhaps have given you less warning/opportunity to prepare it.

See my reply to Potatolord. It wasn't that regular, given that I had to live/work in these areas for almost 5 years. Students and obvious outsiders were a particular target though. The fact that I am a 6 feet 4 inches tall man probably deterred some incidents. I certainly would not want to be wandering about in those places after dark if I was a petite woman.

They didn't give me a warning/opportunity to prepare (besides I was unarmed). It's difficult to describe, sometimes you can tell when people are being shifty/plotting with each other and it triggers your suspicions.

I'm all for allowing use of weapons in situations such as home invasions, where a) assuming you already have reasonable security measures in place you should get some warning that someone is breaking in, allowing you to prepare, and b) you potentially have no means of escape.

Well, at least we can agree on that.

Think about how stupid the general public are for a moment, spraying yourself in the face because the wind was blowing the wrong way isn't going to help much (unless the would be mugger is so busy laughing and feeling sorry for you that they decide to let you off :cry:)

This sounds rather like the bogus arguments we were given as to why normal people should not wear masks during the Covid pandemic! Right before they started requiring their use in supermarkets etc (because they had enough to go round the NHS at that point). If someone was permitted to carry pepper spray for self-defence in this country it could be mandated that they undergo training for it.
 
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