Should Wenger go? (Spoilers!)

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Sagna missed the france game due to still being ill so isn't deffo back, Verm hasn't played, and its his achilles so not so sure he'll be back even if its playable on they'll assume it will only get worse so want to "fix" it first, Pong I thought had a 3 game ban but 2 yellows rather than straight red so just one game.... which just increases the chance of being down to 10 against Swansea :p

Theo isn't a flat track bully really, he just randomly has a bit of a lucky game, doesn't really matter who against, just a left back on an off game and a bad day for a keeper and it might work for him, or might not :p Theres no way to predict who he'll score against, just that he'll suck for 85mins and almost look like a footballer for the first 5 mins.

I don't think Gibbs, Sagna or Verm will be playing against Swansea, which leaves the pressure on really all three new signings to have good games, which isn't the best way to start.

Arteta's a bit of good and bad, not good enough to get in even as backup to the Spain squad, but he doesn't have to play so will be well rested :p

Thing is theres another 2 days with the international squads and I can't remember the last time when we didn't get at least one injury, fingers crossed......... let it be Song.
 
Correct that's why I'm bringing it back on topic :p

To be fair Spain have an embarrassment of riches in midfield, no shame in not getting in that squad, so I don't think Wenger should be sacked over his purchase.
 
HangTime said:
Correct that's why I'm bringing it back on topic :p

To be fair Spain have an embarrassment of riches in midfield, no shame in not getting in that squad, so I don't think Wenger should be sacked over his purchase.
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I said I think in the other thread, the 6 we've bought, IF we sold the 6 worst in the team would have been a huge improvement. Unfortunately most of them are downgrades because we sold 6 of the best instead.

I think a new manager pre-tranfer window would have done a lot better. If Gervinho does continue to suck, AOC isn't going to be first team anytime soon, thats 25-27mil(depending on how much AOC ends up costing), that another manager won't get.

I think too many Arsenal fans are deeming the transfer dealings a success vs our squads at Newcastle/Pool/Utd, when really the comparison should ONLy be against last years squad, in which case, we've gone backwards again.

The only real question is how far the squad has gone backwards from last year , the first few games Wenger refused to play Cesc/Nasri, the Utd squad was a joke, the next few games I'd be surprised if we were at the best this squad can do. If they look pathetic by xmas, I really don't see what choice a NORMAL sane board would have, ours, who knows.

Some real truth from the board/Wenger would go a long way to giving us an idea how badly he's doing, refusing to spend but being given money, completely his own fault, board lying, less his fault but Wenger is still getting PLENTY of other things wrong.

Its the transfer window so people are focusing on the squad, but look how crap we were against Utd, worse teams will go and lose less, can't tell our fullbacks not to go forward, play for a draw, Theo is woeful, woeful in helping defence which was heavily weakened, we still had Bendtner there who would have done more on the wing, and other options who would have done more.

Poor subs, bad formation, literally no tactics at all, very expensive youth squad which has yielded all of 2-3 players over almost his entire time at Arsenal.

Transfers is one thing he's still got wrong this transfer window.

I've also said before, if there was a HUGE turnaround back to his old ways, proper attack, sorting out defence, dropping crap players and finding great players on the cheap I have no problem, if he continues as is, we'll just get worse season by season till he goes.
 
drunkenmaster said:
I said I think in the other thread, the 6 we've bought, IF we sold the 6 worst in the team would have been a huge improvement. Unfortunately most of them are downgrades because we sold 6 of the best instead.

I think a new manager pre-tranfer window would have done a lot better. If Gervinho does continue to suck, AOC isn't going to be first team anytime soon, thats 25-27mil(depending on how much AOC ends up costing), that another manager won't get.

I think too many Arsenal fans are deeming the transfer dealings a success vs our squads at Newcastle/Pool/Utd, when really the comparison should ONLy be against last years squad, in which case, we've gone backwards again.

The only real question is how far the squad has gone backwards from last year , the first few games Wenger refused to play Cesc/Nasri, the Utd squad was a joke, the next few games I'd be surprised if we were at the best this squad can do. If they look pathetic by xmas, I really don't see what choice a NORMAL sane board would have, ours, who knows.

Some real truth from the board/Wenger would go a long way to giving us an idea how badly he's doing, refusing to spend but being given money, completely his own fault, board lying, less his fault but Wenger is still getting PLENTY of other things wrong.

Its the transfer window so people are focusing on the squad, but look how crap we were against Utd, worse teams will go and lose less, can't tell our fullbacks not to go forward, play for a draw, Theo is woeful, woeful in helping defence which was heavily weakened, we still had Bendtner there who would have done more on the wing, and other options who would have done more.

Poor subs, bad formation, literally no tactics at all, very expensive youth squad which has yielded all of 2-3 players over almost his entire time at Arsenal.

Transfers is one thing he's still got wrong this transfer window.

I've also said before, if there was a HUGE turnaround back to his old ways, proper attack, sorting out defence, dropping crap players and finding great players on the cheap I have no problem, if he continues as is, we'll just get worse season by season till he goes.
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Possibly and it is very sobering to think, that this season COULD be the first season for 15 years approx that Arseanl dont make the Champions League. :confused: However if you look at the Liverpool situation, the lack of Champions League football, gives them the best chance of a full on assualt at the league crown. So there is a silver lining to everything.

The only reason why it would be devastating to Arsenal not getting Champions League is finacial. Liverpool are bankrolled by rich owners, we are not. So no Champions League would mean less money and less chance of making it next year.

I just cant think how/why Wenger has been so utterly delusional for the past 4 years. Add to that the fact that he has been spinning a bunch of lies to us for the past few years also.

We'll see. I would much rather think that this is a turning point now for the Gunners.

His focus should change to bringing in good players with experience and know how. In fact age isnt a concern. The most important thing is the experience they bring.

The only thing that is wrong with the current squad (other than we still need to replace Nasri with an exceptional attacking mid) is our strength in depth is very poor.

An injury especially at the back and we could be back to a Djourou/Koscielny defence or even Jenkinson at right back.....

We should have bought Cahill as well, to make the squad stronger.

Im hoping we get him in January along with Hazard.
 
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I don't think many view the transfer dealings this summer a success, at the end of the day Fabregas was the best player in the league in his position so replacing him with equal quality was going to be nigh on impossible, and I doubt Wenger had THAT much say as to the fee we got for him.

As for AOC and Gervinho like yourself I made my feelings clear on this some weeks ago, £24-27m for players we don't need, who either lack experience or will miss January for the next two seasons running seems ludicrous when you consider that the same money could have got Scott Parker (massive improvement for first XI) and either Cahill or Jagielka (Cahill has a £17m release clause so they couldn't have stopped him leaving). Come January surely the priority must be to tie up Cahil on a pre-contract agreement for next summer.

Final day deals I was happy with only in the sense that they improved the squad over what it was at the start of the day but again I wanted to see Wenger doing deals in June (like Fergie) not waiting until the last minute when we've already dropped 8 points and giving no time for the new signings to bed in. Likewise the Cesc/Nasri sagas went on too long and became a distraction, plus we would could have saved around £600,000/month(?) in wages had we got rid of them sooner.

Arsenal used to scare the **** out of teams, I remember Richard Dunne literally (c) Redknapp crapping his pants one game we hit five against Man City, watched the 7-0 against Everton the other day and again, Henry comes off the bench at half time and you see smell the fear on the opposition players coming over the internet, backing off, falling over themselves trying to win the ball etc. I remember Bobby Robson giving an interview where he said something like "Gary Speed has just come off the pitch and said Vieira is the best player he's ever played against in 20 years of football".

Nowadays you look at the team and wonder where the fear factor comes into it, the Arshavin of a couple of years ago maybe but not any more, Walcott has pace but when he goes past his man it is the ballboy who is bricking it, not the keeper. RvP good shot etc but he can't do it all himself, he had a great understanding with Fabregas which is now lost.

So what can Wenger do about this? Well, the problem is to get that sort of fear factor you either need to buy an established star or somehow cultivate a youth prospect. Unfortunately it is now not just 1 or 2 new superstars required by Arsenal but 4 or 5.

edit: The irony is my 'heads in the sand' rant some 6 years ago was about the loss of Vieira (I was laughed at for having the gall to suggest that Arsenal wouldn't finish in the top 2 the season after he was sold) when looking back now we still had a fairly decent squadat that time.
 
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this is becoming a generic Arsenal thread, please stick to the topic, I know side issues develop but we cannot have it becoming a generic Arsenal thread

( as much as we feel sorry for you ) ;)
 
jonneymendoza said:
on topic. as i said before arsenal got screwed big time

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/s...esident-says-cesc-fabregas-worth-L53m?cc=5739

Fergie would have sold fabregas for 50/60m easily but no, wenger the idiot sold him for peanuts. if we had recieved 50m we could have easily bought mvia or hazzard as well asthe current players we bought and still made a profit
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you cant say that with any certainty (and Gill /SAF/ Utd have never been that great at negotiations)

Fabregas situation was always bound to work against Arsenal, because both other parties wanted the same thing desperately. Barcelona players /staff acted pretty deviously and often, and it obviously didnt help Barca have so little money to start with (although if I were Fabregas I would be pretty ticked off they agreeed to the Sanchez deal before mine, considering how much he was supposed to be wanted)

£35m is a decent amount of money considering everything (although so much in add-ons is surprising, as surely this is practically gaurenteed)
 
jonneymendoza said:
on topic. as i said before arsenal got screwed big time

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/s...esident-says-cesc-fabregas-worth-L53m?cc=5739

Fergie would have sold fabregas for 50/60m easily but no, wenger the idiot sold him for peanuts. if we had recieved 50m we could have easily bought mvia or hazzard as well asthe current players we bought and still made a profit
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How do you know that it was Wenger's decision to sell Fabregas? Arsene gets a ridiculous amount of flak purely because he's the face of Arsenal, this could easily have been a board decision and Wenger is the one that has to answer all the questions and face up to angry fans. Give him a break.
 
jonneymendoza said:
on topic. as i said before arsenal got screwed big time

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/s...esident-says-cesc-fabregas-worth-L53m?cc=5739

Fergie would have sold fabregas for 50/60m easily but no, wenger the idiot sold him for peanuts. if we had recieved 50m we could have easily bought mvia or hazzard as well asthe current players we bought and still made a profit
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Unfortunately that article misses out the crucial quote. Here you can see that he also said

Normally his price wouldn't have been €29m, but he lowered his value by saying that he really wanted to go to Barcelona.
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Although I still feel we could have got more for him, we were over a barrel as Fabregas was adamant he wanted to leave this year.
 
Marcotti is retweeting at the moment that Cesc said the board didn't want to sell, but Wenger convinced them to sell and lower the price. Not sure how legit the quotes are, but if true I take back what I said above and say Wenger was a bit of an idiot if this is the case. Fine, get rid of him, but don't lower the price.
 
jonneymendoza said:
sorry but the bucket stops with wenger.
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reefoid said:
Marcotti is retweeting at the moment that Cesc said the board didn't want to sell, but Wenger convinced them to sell and lower the price. Not sure how legit the quotes are, but if true I take back what I said above and say Wenger was a bit of an idiot if this is the case. Fine, get rid of him, but don't lower the price.
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Wenger can't even say its because he didn't want it to drag on and become a saga .. considering it already was :p
 
reefoid said:
Marcotti is retweeting at the moment that Cesc said the board didn't want to sell, but Wenger convinced them to sell and lower the price. Not sure how legit the quotes are, but if true I take back what I said above and say Wenger was a bit of an idiot if this is the case. Fine, get rid of him, but don't lower the price.
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Wengers a a idiot then if thats the case.
 
davestar_delux said:
O'Neill and Strachan spent similar amounts at Celtic. It's debatable whether Strachan did better as well, he got to the last 16 of the Champions League - but with the same points total as O'Neill did. O'Neill took us to a UEFA Cup final and won more trophies domestically. Not to forget the massive point that Strachan took over from O'Neill thus inheriting most of his work so it's impossible to make this comparison fairly.

Speaking as a fan of a team he managed for 5 years, I think he is much more than just a cheque-book manager.
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Strachan didnt have the money to spend that O'Neill did and didnt inherit players of the same calibre that ONeill did when he took over (he inherited his best player, Henrik Larrson from Wim Jansen remember).

While they won similar amounts, Strachan did it in less time, made it to the last 16 twice.

Neither manager is any great shakes, you dont have to be in Scotland. Celtic fans will always argue that ONeil is a better manager than Strachan but the facts dont lie, at Celtic, Strachan was more successful.
 
By all info we have available, Wenger had MORE than enough money for at least one of M'vila/Hazard, and went for neither, he may have had money for the both of them though we spent a surprisingly large amount once you add in Gervinho/AOC, its not far off 50mil, but we had circa 100mil available(and I think more than that, if you look at Arsenal's cash in hand we basically had 100mil+ on the books on top of that, it generates interest for the club and its not ideal to dip into it, but its there and a manager with Wenger's pull could loosen the purse strings a bit.

But you can see where Arsenal are, look at Cesc for Barca, he's been 10x more effective, playing the same football himself, because of the guys around him, thats how far Arsenal are from Barca now.

The info that Wenger got them to accept a lower offer is nuts, and another reason the delusional fool should be fired. I've said for a while, he's better than Iniesta, he's a better goal scorer than Xavi, and assister and very good defensively, in all the transfer that happened in the past 5 years, I'd ONLY place him below Ronaldo in value/quality of players who have moved and we should have been looking at 60mil for him. This rubbish about being worth less because only Barca offered, firstly, if we said he was for sale last year and put a 50-60mil price on his head when Barca had more money, we'd have got it, its as simple as that. Every single player there and the manager knows exactly how good he is. This isn't bringing home a friend, Guardiola knew when Cesc was 13 that he was going to be freaking epic in the future.

But we fannied around, let them spend their money on other players, if Barca knew 6 months ago Cesc could go for 60mil, I think they wouldn't have bought Sanchez and would have saved it all for Cesc.

We also could still have accepted a big offer from City, knowing Cesc wouldn't actually agree to go there, which would have forced Barca to offer more. We played it all wrong, and the main man to do that was again, Wenger.

he's STILL buying players that suit a 4-4-2, and still playing half of them out of position, and refusing to drop people who are consistantly useless for 70-80%+ of every single game, while refusing to play people on the bench who are always good.

ANYTHING is possible, but I think the chance of Wenger turning it around again at this stage is so so small that we have to cut our losses because every single transfer window he's commiting us to worse players, long term, on bigger and bigger wages, who simply aren't good enough.

How many times do we get screwed by him in transfers, offers 8mil for Jones, they ask 10, we miss out, offer 22mil for M'vila, they want 30, bet they would have taken 25, we miss out, could have got Hazard 3 years ago at half the cost, we miss out, could have got Ronaldo, we offer a few mil less, we miss out, over and over and over.

had we offered what, a total of 10mil extra on 3 of those guys, how much better would Arsenal have been and be now, for 10mil, but we can spend up to 15mil on AOC and Theo.
 
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Metalface Mark said:
Strachan didnt have the money to spend that O'Neill did and didnt inherit players of the same calibre that ONeill did when he took over (he inherited his best player, Henrik Larrson from Wim Jansen remember).

While they won similar amounts, Strachan did it in less time, made it to the last 16 twice.

Neither manager is any great shakes, you dont have to be in Scotland. Celtic fans will always argue that ONeil is a better manager than Strachan but the facts dont lie, at Celtic, Strachan was more successful.
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That's not a fact Mark. And Strachan did spend the same amount of money as O'Neill... do some research.

It's boring and off-topic for the thread to continue to correct your nonsense.
 
drunkenmaster said:
By all info we have available, Wenger had MORE than enough money for at least one of M'vila/Hazard, and went for neither, he may have had money for the both of them though we spent a surprisingly large amount once you add in Gervinho/AOC, its not far off 50mil, but we had circa 100mil available(and I think more than that, if you look at Arsenal's cash in hand we basically had 100mil+ on the books on top of that, it generates interest for the club and its not ideal to dip into it, but its there and a manager with Wenger's pull could loosen the purse strings a bit.

But you can see where Arsenal are, look at Cesc for Barca, he's been 10x more effective, playing the same football himself, because of the guys around him, thats how far Arsenal are from Barca now.

The info that Wenger got them to accept a lower offer is nuts, and another reason the delusional fool should be fired. I've said for a while, he's better than Iniesta, he's a better goal scorer than Xavi, and assister and very good defensively, in all the transfer that happened in the past 5 years, I'd ONLY place him below Ronaldo in value/quality of players who have moved and we should have been looking at 60mil for him. This rubbish about being worth less because only Barca offered, firstly, if we said he was for sale last year and put a 50-60mil price on his head when Barca had more money, we'd have got it, its as simple as that. Every single player there and the manager knows exactly how good he is. This isn't bringing home a friend, Guardiola knew when Cesc was 13 that he was going to be freaking epic in the future.

But we fannied around, let them spend their money on other players, if Barca knew 6 months ago Cesc could go for 60mil, I think they wouldn't have bought Sanchez and would have saved it all for Cesc.

We also could still have accepted a big offer from City, knowing Cesc wouldn't actually agree to go there, which would have forced Barca to offer more. We played it all wrong, and the main man to do that was again, Wenger.

he's STILL buying players that suit a 4-4-2, and still playing half of them out of position, and refusing to drop people who are consistantly useless for 70-80%+ of every single game, while refusing to play people on the bench who are always good.

ANYTHING is possible, but I think the chance of Wenger turning it around again at this stage is so so small that we have to cut our losses because every single transfer window he's commiting us to worse players, long term, on bigger and bigger wages, who simply aren't good enough.

How many times do we get screwed by him in transfers, offers 8mil for Jones, they ask 10, we miss out, offer 22mil for M'vila, they want 30, bet they would have taken 25, we miss out, could have got Hazard 3 years ago at half the cost, we miss out, could have got Ronaldo, we offer a few mil less, we miss out, over and over and over.

had we offered what, a total of 10mil extra on 3 of those guys, how much better would Arsenal have been and be now, for 10mil, but we can spend up to 15mil on AOC and Theo.
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well said mate. cant believe wenger and co let fabregas go for peanuts. he is the best player wenger has ever let go. Im talking about current ability not past history/ability aka Thierry Henry. he left when he was going down hill. Fabregas left at his prime. stupid stupid wenger and the board. i do think its david dean who is really missed. he would have easily got us hazard and mvilla. And he probably would have convinced Fabregas to stay. Heck im begining to feel if david dean was still here we would have won something and fabregas wouldnt even be thinking of leaving us
 
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