Siliconslave's how to make espresso thread

[Raymond Lin]

12.3% dehydration this time, I think this will be as light as I will go. My first batch was almost 15% dehydration, kept pushing it for more floral notes. Will test this in about 10 days to 2 weeks from now.

p.s. although the machine says a 300g max limit and I did 250g, this time round I got about 8-9 beans that has burnt tips (1.3g) that was probably didn't get moved around due to the amount in the roaster. I think I hit the capacity for the machine.

 

[Kainz]

OMG, we got the same plate! Plate brothers!!

 

[Timber]

Hello all, never ventured this deep into the forum. And no I'm not following @Raymond Lin from the Switch 2 and headphones threads! Following some research I want to post this question and see if I'm on the right tracks.

Basically I've been a Nespresso customer from a long, long time. Over the years I've had a couple of their original machines and they were fine for no-nonsense coffee. Three years ago we got the Kitchen done and I took that opportunity to buy a new machine; a Nespresso Vertuo Plus machine based on their Vertuo capsules. The machine is few months short of three years old and whilst it works fine it's given me pause to re-look at whether it's time to change. At the time I got the Plus I took up a few offers including their monthly subscription (£25) which although expensive has actually not been enough for my monthly intake of coffee.

I think my requirements are relatively basic; I only drink lattes. Two a day, but one has to be decaf. Sometimes it will be less if I'm busy, or out. On a very, very rare occasion I might drink three coffees a day. I never drink other coffee types and the others in the house have zero interest in coffee. The benefit of the Nespresso is that it's easy to make and very consistent. It requires little thought. The machines aren't expensive and over the three years I've managed to acquire some freebies when on offer such as two Aeroccino 3 milk frothers, two glass pod storage jars, a travel mug and pair of cups. However I'm aware there is a whole new world where the taste could be better and the flavour options expand massively. Hopefully for decaf coffee where the Nespresso flavours are extremely limited.

Over the nearly three years I spent £775 on the subscription (inc. 50% off for 6 months) and an addition £295 on topping those coffee orders up. And manually adding up my orders (so might be short) I've ordered 1,720 capsules. So 62p for a coffee. So even though Nespresso VL pods are 71p - 89p I think the free sleeves, offers and subscription has reduced the price somewhat which I imagine price is going to be closer to buying some coffee beans.

So my thinking is this; cancel the Nespresso subscription - will run out of coffee in October. Between now and then order a Sage Duo Temp Pro + Sage Dose Control Pro. These seem to be on offer at the moment at £299 + £150. Indeed looking at eBay there are even some refurbished options, or the odd unused one that springs up. Then buy a knock box, scales and mat. The reason for the two Sage machines is they seem to be very mature platforms and not overly complicated. And not overly expensive. Ideally it would be nice for these to last five years.

So what are people's thoughts? Does this sound like a good move?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Hello all, never ventured this deep into the forum. And no I'm not following @Raymond Lin from the Switch 2 and headphones threads! Following some research I want to post this question and see if I'm on the right tracks.

Basically I've been a Nespresso customer from a long, long time. Over the years I've had a couple of their original machines and they were fine for no-nonsense coffee. Three years ago we got the Kitchen done and I took that opportunity to buy a new machine; a Nespresso Vertuo Plus machine based on their Vertuo capsules. The machine is few months short of three years old and whilst it works fine it's given me pause to re-look at whether it's time to change. At the time I got the Plus I took up a few offers including their monthly subscription (£25) which although expensive has actually not been enough for my monthly intake of coffee.

I think my requirements are relatively basic; I only drink lattes. Two a day, but one has to be decaf. Sometimes it will be less if I'm busy, or out. On a very, very rare occasion I might drink three coffees a day. I never drink other coffee types and the others in the house have zero interest in coffee. The benefit of the Nespresso is that it's easy to make and very consistent. It requires little thought. The machines aren't expensive and over the three years I've managed to acquire some freebies when on offer such as two Aeroccino 3 milk frothers, two glass pod storage jars, a travel mug and pair of cups. However I'm aware there is a whole new world where the taste could be better and the flavour options expand massively. Hopefully for decaf coffee where the Nespresso flavours are extremely limited.

Over the nearly three years I spent £775 on the subscription (inc. 50% off for 6 months) and an addition £295 on topping those coffee orders up. And manually adding up my orders (so might be short) I've ordered 1,720 capsules. So 62p for a coffee. So even though Nespresso VL pods are 71p - 89p I think the free sleeves, offers and subscription has reduced the price somewhat which I imagine price is going to be closer to buying some coffee beans.

So my thinking is this; cancel the Nespresso subscription - will run out of coffee in October. Between now and then order a Sage Duo Temp Pro + Sage Dose Control Pro. These seem to be on offer at the moment at £299 + £150. Indeed looking at eBay there are even some refurbished options, or the odd unused one that springs up. Then buy a knock box, scales and mat. The reason for the two Sage machines is they seem to be very mature platforms and not overly complicated. And not overly expensive. Ideally it would be nice for these to last five years.

So what are people's thoughts? Does this sound like a good move?

Thanks in advance.

Not for you, because....

If you are going to alternate between normal beans and Decaf, you are going to HAVE to single dose, or need a 2nd grinder. Also, in order to make espresso, the grinder will need to haev to dialed in for 1 type of beans and 1 batch of beans. If it grinds perfect espresso grind for 1 bag, the next bag you might need to adjust slightly, you defintely need to adjust for decaf.

A machine like the Sage doesn't single dose, well, it does, but not in the way that makes it nice to use. It's not designed to be single dose would be a better way to put it.

Next thing, it won't be consistent in the coffee that it makes, it's consistency is down to the user, you.

So we now fail on several quality of life points that is important to you.

In terms of cost, the beans I get, or used to get were £9 for a bag of 227g. 18g double shot basket would mean 12.6cups, lets call it 12 cups rom 1 bag. That works out to 75p per cup. Not that much cheaper than Nespresso. You could get cheaper beans, like you can get 1kg bag for £20, then you will get 55 cups out of 1kg and then work out at 36p per cup.

This is where you can save money with beans, because you are not gatekept by the machine with what coffee to you. Or you can do what I do now to bring the cost down by roasting my own, or keep the cost the same but use the same money to get better quality beans because i am doing some of the work.

Lastly, espresso making is a hobby, your requirement that you only drink Latte, is actually the stumbling block, had you said "I only drink black coffee" then it would be SO MUCH simpler and also cheaper. Latte requires espresso, there is not getting around, and espresso requires a FINE grind, and thus a good grinder. You also want 2 different type of beans on the same day....that doubles the difficulty somewhat too....so I am afriad, if I were you, stick with nespresso unless you want to start a new hobby into coffee.

 

[manic111]

Agree with everything Raymond has said. Equally, I've literally just bought the Duo Temp Pro (refurb from eBay for about £220 and came in as new condition), and have the Sage Smart Grinder on order. I've moved from a fairly low end bean to cup machine.

I love the thing already - it makes way better coffee than my old machine (and then any Nespresso I've ever tried). And the process is really enjoyable.

Is it a financially sensible idea? Probably not. But having a decent machine is a lovely thing to have, and I'm really enjoying learning with it even before having received the grinder.

Edit: and to mix and match beans, just buy your decaf ready ground, and use the grinder for the regular beans

 

[Raymond Lin]

Yeah, you could get pre-ground for one of them, that could work. But decaf goes stale faster than normal beans....getting pre-ground decaf IMO is not a good idea.

But then drinking pre-ground for espresso....also seem like a bad idea too, almost make the whole idea of drinking better coffee pointless.

 

[Timber]

Thank you @Raymond Lin & @manic111 that helps. Was going to reply sooner, but I'm having issues with Virgin Media today, not that long after writing I've been having no probs with them in the network sub-forum. Sigh.

Apologies I should have been clearer I'm not necessarily looking for easy coffee and interested in the art-form of making coffee. I've seen lots of these James Hoffman, Coffee Kev etc. reviews on YouTube to understand the added complexity. It was more given as historical reasons for why I kept the Nespresso machine. i.e. the benefits. I understand why there is potentially better tasting coffee out there and want to experience it. But yes realistically it's only for lattes.

So with that in mind I'm not clear as to why two separate beans is an issue in that Sage Grinder? It reads as if you're saying there's a more chance for error as I will have to adjust the grind every time I swap beans, therefore risking consistency in the results?

Two other thoughts if it makes things easier; I could go decaf-only (I'm trying to limit caffeine levels). Also I could buy a hand grinder too, i.e. a Timemore C2, or similar - if it has to be two separate grinders. And then use that for the afternoon coffee.

 

[manic111]

Thank you @Raymond Lin & @manic111

So with that in mind I'm not clear as to why two separate beans is an issue in that Sage Grinder? It reads as if you're saying there's a more chance for error as I will have to adjust the grind every time I swap beans, therefore risking consistency in the results?

Raymond knows his stuff more than me, but to my mind there are two issues:

- you'll need to only put a tiny amount of beans into the hopper, or take all of the beans out the hopper every time you change beans

- you'll need to dial in the grinder each time you change (although I assume you can deal with this by just remembering the setting for each different bean)

 

[Timber]

Raymond knows his stuff more than me, but to my mind there are two issues:

- you'll need to only put a tiny amount of beans into the hopper, or take all of the beans out the hopper every time you change beans

- you'll need to dial in the grinder each time you change (although I assume you can deal with this by just remembering the setting for each different bean)

Understood, but that is also going to apply when switching from (random brand examples) Tesco's dark roast, to Waitrose Medium roast beans too? I.e. any time I switch to a new coffee bean, or roast I'm going to have to re-dial-in the grind adjustments.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Understood, but that is also going to apply when switching from (random brand examples) Tesco's dark roast, to Waitrose Medium roast beans too? I.e. any time I switch to a new coffee bean, or roast I'm going to have to re-dial-in the grind adjustments.

Yes, because coffee is organic, it's going to be different with every batch that they roast, and in a commerical setting, it means every bag unless it somehow you manage to get 2 bag from the same batch, and nails the espresso the 1st shot you pull.

Espresso shot require a VERY fine balance between beans (each one has different density, depends on where they are grown), how much you put into the portafilter, machine pressure, shot duration, temperature, water quality and a couple of other things.

Some things have a larger affect than others, but the most important thing is quality beans, then you have to worry about preparing the puck properly...this is what I mean by it being a hobby, each step of it is a rabbit hole. If you go back to this thread you will see all kinds of gadgets people bought in search of the best coffee at home. I too have some weird gadget in search of this, getting a 58.3mm tamper because 58mm isn't a tight enough tolerance and I want to remove that variable where I want that last .3mm on the edge of the portafilter to have the same pressure applied.

Things like that, rabbit hole.

Anyway...not saying you need all that, but what I am trying to say is that a good espresso is a balance, and a balance that is easily or can be easily be knock off balance by one of many aspect along the way, from bad beans, bad grinder, bad prep, bad water, etc. Getting a CONSISTENT cup is actually something that is quite difficult. Which is what your Nepresso gives you.

edit - if you get the same blend, the same brand, everytime, then you might not need to dial it every bag. You might need to make tiny adjustments, but not drastic. If you are however switching to different beans, and different roasters then you definitely need to dial it again for a new bag. I am not talking about huge changes, but a little tweaking on the grind setting is expected.

 

[Raymond Lin]

If you are changing beans every time in the grinder, know that there will always be some retention, bits of coffee left from the last time you used it. So let's say you alternate between normal and decaf, then every normal cup will have a TINY bit of decaf in it and every decaf will have a tiny bit of normal coffee in it. Unless you clean it out every use. Even my Niche Zero would retain about 0.1g or just under PER use, so I put a bellow at the top and force some air down it to push it out, but then even after that. If I open it, I will still find a little bits left behind.

You have to accept this, unless you use 2 grinders, one especially for decaf.

 

[Timber]

Anyway...not saying you need all that, but what I am trying to say is that a good espresso is a balance, and a balance that is easily or can be easily be knock off balance by one of many aspect along the way, from bad beans, bad grinder, bad prep, bad water, etc. Getting a CONSISTENT cup is actually something that is quite difficult. Which is what your Nepresso gives you.

If you are changing beans every time in the grinder, know that there will always be some retention, bits of coffee left from the last time you used it. So let's say you alternate between normal and decaf, then every normal cup will have a TINY bit of decaf in it and every decaf will have a tiny bit of normal coffee in it. Unless you clean it out every use. Even my Niche Zero would retain about 0.1g or just under PER use, so I put a bellow at the top and force some air down it to push it out, but then even after that. If I open it, I will still find a little bits left behind.

You have to accept this, unless you use 2 grinders, one especially for decaf.

Again thank you and understood. I think in my mind I'd expected to single dose every time anyway because of things like wanting to keep the beans as fresh as possible. I can see that getting consistency is going to be difficult and probably unlikely the first time with new beans. And therefore take a few attempts to dial-in. I do realise it's a good point you've raised about the decaf requirement. Funnily enough I was just watching a video on the Timemore C2 and it was mentioned that there's just under .1kg of retention in there. Also the challenges of a hand grinder for espresso and the differences in decaf vs normal beans.

So it feels like it might be wise to separate the requirement for decaf. Have the Sage Grinder + Espresso machine for normal coffee. And then look at a second grinder for the decaf at some point.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Again thank you and understood. I think in my mind I'd expected to single dose every time anyway because of things like wanting to keep the beans as fresh as possible. I can see that getting consistency is going to be difficult and probably unlikely the first time with new beans. And therefore take a few attempts to dial-in. I do realise it's a good point you've raised about the decaf requirement. Funnily enough I was just watching a video on the Timemore C2 and it was mentioned that there's just under .1kg of retention in there. Also the challenges of a hand grinder for espresso and the differences in decaf vs normal beans.

So it feels like it might be wise to separate the requirement for decaf. Have the Sage Grinder + Espresso machine for normal coffee. And then look at a second grinder for the decaf at some point.

You can single dose in the Sage, and honestly single dose is the 1 thing that will bring better consistency because you control the WEIGHT (amount) of coffee into your espresso, and that has a huge impact on your puck. As opposed to measure by volume or worse....a timer in a grinder.

If you do go down this route, you will need a scale, Aliexpress sell one that I love, I got it like 2 years ago now, I love it. Less than £15. It does accuracy to 0.1g, it has USB charging, and it even has a rubber cap for the USB port to stop water getting in, it's pretty water resistence otherwise.

Mini Electronic Coffee Scale Smart Powder Water Ratio USB Silicone Pad High Quality Precision Professional Kitchen Coffee Tools

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

 

[Timber]

If you do go down this route, you will need a scale, Aliexpress sell one that I love, I got it like 2 years ago now, I love it. Less than £15. It does accuracy to 0.1g, it has USB charging, and it even has a rubber cap for the USB port to stop water getting in, it's pretty water resistence otherwise.

I was budgeting for a scale, milk jug, knock box and mat - soon after the purchase (I know the Sage comes with a milk jug).

Thank you - I have added your recommendation and I think I've also found your Aliexpress scale on Amazon for £18.40 (after voucher).

 

[Raymond Lin]

I was budgeting for a scale, milk jug, knock box and mat - soon after the purchase (I know the Sage comes with a milk jug).

Thank you - I have added your recommendation and I think I've also found your Aliexpress scale on Amazon for £18.40 (after voucher).

I don't know what tamper it comes with, they are normally just a plastic thing...you will also need a tamper, a correct size for your machine.

If you live in a hard water area, you might need a Brita filter too, and if it's a used machine, I would consider a descale be something you do first.

 

[Timber]

I don't know what tamper it comes with, they are normally just a plastic thing...you will also need a tamper, a correct size for your machine.

If you live in a hard water area, you might need a Brita filter too, and if it's a used machine, I would consider a descale be something you do first.

Looks like the Sage Duo-Temp comes with a basic, magnetic, but probably serviceable tamper to begin with. I could add something more premium down the line. We do have a Brita water filter.

I'd already been eying up HD 600's so it's case of when I can get this really!

 

[Kainz]

Took an order earlier in the week for some stuff - Cafiza cleaning tablets and a tub of Urnex Grindz grinder tablets.

I lobbed a few teaspoons of the stuff into my Sette grinder and ran a 15sc grind cycle before examining my previously dirty burrs - they had done a stellar job as they were very clean! I'd forgotten to take photos sadly but they previously had had a brown lacquer like coat in places, which a nylon brush couldn't remove.

I didn't have any sacrificial beans to flush through the grinder post clean however so I had to use some of my fresh roasted ones :/

 

[Cadder]

I've just cleaned out our Niche Zero for the first time. For 16 months of use it didn't seem too bad. Some areas were caked but it didn't take much to clean up. It was so easy to take apart and reassemble. Burrs seemed in good nick too.

It's a fantastic grinder. It just retains a bit, even with a drop of water in the beans. Especially with Monsoon Malabar... So dry!

 

[Raymond Lin]

I've just cleaned out our Niche Zero for the first time. For 16 months of use it didn't seem too bad. Some areas were caked but it didn't take much to clean up. It was so easy to take apart and reassemble. Burrs seemed in good nick too.

It's a fantastic grinder. It just retains a bit, even with a drop of water in the beans. Especially with Monsoon Malabar... So dry!

I clean mine about once a year, it's very easy to do. I never RDT though, I don't think need needs it. The only thing I do is use a little air from a bellow to push it through so there is next to no retention. When I open it up, there are tiny bits where the "fins" that pushes the grind down are and bits on the burr but nothing like clumps.

 

[LuckyBenski]

I've wondered this before and still don't have an answer:

If a grinder has retention every time it's used then where does it go?