Smart meter rollout

Mynight said:
Wow 140 pages ill read that one in the morning :D

I didn't realise how heavily regulated the buying/selling was. That's quite an eye opener :eek:. Is this the EU or homegrown regs do you know?

Thanks for that explanation makes much more sense now. I won't bother guessing what you do for a job :D

I have absolutely no issues with them making profit. If they pay tax on it then can make as much as they want in my opinion. However it's all too easy to see how some are really feeling the pinch when commodities raise their prices and wages don't follow :(
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Haha to be honest its all jargon unless your familiar with it and yes i;m employed by one of the big six lol

All regs are home grown and its a lot more complicated than the media make out and people understand. For example your supplier isnt 1 company its 4 entities.

Supplier: that bills you and who you deal with
Data Collector: That deals with the settlement side and purchase versus sales for the business based on each customers account.
MOP: Meter operator so the chaps that come and change your meter etc
DA: Data aggregator which take the settlement and PVS information from the DC check and collate and send this to Elexon which is the regulating body

To be comical about it you can have British Gas supplying you, Accuread dealing with the data collection and the data aggregation and Scottish power dealing with the meter installation and exchanges etc .... all for one customer. To top it all off you then need to get all these different companies talking together effectively which isn't always the case

Pre De-privatization in 1996 it was actually a lot easier .. if you were in London EDF was the company that suppliers you and did everything part of the above for themselves, there was no choice or option. Post De-privatization its a web of contracts and agreements with companies.

One of the few companies that do the supplier, DC and DA side all in house with only some meter operator areas contract our is EON to be honest and their DC and supplier sides instead of being separate business in separate offices in the country are all under one roof working a lot smoother and a lot more efficiently, but it took 5 years to get the regulatory clearance to allow them to do that and to date are the only company to do this.
 
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HybridX said:
To give an example.... for the first 6 months to date for all small to medium business customers joining one particular supplier..... anyone seeing me post will guess who I'm referring to, 54% of all accounts were started with an actual accurate meter readings. the remaining 46% were estimated because....

a) the customer ignored the letter asking for a meter reading
b) the meter reader sent around especially to take that starting reading couldn't get access.
c) The customer didn't respond to the subsequent email and/ or phone call asking for a reading

That is a lot of expenditure for just over 50% return rate for an actual reading.

Of those same number of customer of the same period of time 43% submitted a reading or allowed access to the meter reader to take a reading for their first bill with the new supplier meaning they were either

1) billed from an estimate at the start through to an actual reading for the first bill
2)billed from an actual at the supply start to an actual reading.

Again over 50% of customers estimated which means customers calling in complaining about overpaying or under paying or just being mardy about it being estimated.

Something like 33% of the same number of customers over the same period of time received a bill with both a starting and first bill estimated readings..... and then proceed to kick off and moan and complain.

From an energy suppliers point of view we need smart meters as quite simply the customer cant be trusted to take responsibility for their supply and help ensure their own bills are correct by working with the energy supplier.

Obviously the figures change for domestic customers but I'm not sure on those figures but this gives a good example of the problems
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I would argue business customers are irrelevant for comparison to domestic markets (it's just another excuse), as we all know businesses by and large withhold payments to gain interest payments (on accounts fully of over paying customers cash)or to free up liquid cash for investment, it's standard practice, energy suppliers coerce customers to over pay for the same reasons.

Domestic customers have no real gains to be made by hanging on to £100 for a month to make £0.05 interest, or invest that £0.05.

If you're a business who has 10,000 customers who are £100 in credit, you are laughing all the way to the bank. :confused:
 
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mattyfez said:
I would argue business customers are irrelevant for comparison to domestic markets (it's just another excuse), as we all know businesses by and large withhold payments to gain interest payments (on accounts fully of over paying customers cash)or to free up liquid cash for investment, it's standard practice, energy suppliers coerce customers to over pay for the same reasons.

Domestic customers have no real gains to be made by hanging on to £100 for a month to make £0.05 interest, or invest that £0.05.

If you're a business who has 10,000 customers who are £100 in credit, you are laughing all the way to the bank. :confused:
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it was purely used as an example as its the one I'm most familiar with, but the scenario plays the same with domestic customers too. i wasnt talking about cost but rather the issues that are ran into when trying to bill customers correctly

Look at it this way as well gas and electricity are 2 of the few things you use then pay for 3 months later, so essentially your using it by being given credit by your energy supplier. You wouldn't go to the pub and drink 14 pints then decide you will pay for them in 3 months time would you?
 
Why wouldn't you want the most accurate bill possible in the easiest way possible ?

Bunch of Luddites.
 
Efour said:
Why wouldn't you want the most accurate bill possible in the easiest way possible ?

Bunch of Luddites.
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I already do, and I have no issue with smart meters, *IF* the cost is met by the suppliers, and *IF* they can clearly show this, and *IF* they can show they are not making money off the back of it.

Smart meters have no clear benefit to the consumer, other than more accurate bills, but bill accuracy has always been in the hands of the consumer by way of submitting readings, so it's not really a benefit.
 
I have no issues with smart meters being installed in my house, anything that keeps my bills accurate is a good thing. These smart meters will probably allow for more accurate estimates of what your direct debit should be set to. So in the long, it could save you money and a lot of hassle.

However, I would be much happier knowing what sort of security they will be using. Will they be using some sort of encrypted wifi, such as WPA2, or will it be a secure mobile data connection? Will the data be encrypted before being sent across the secure connection? Will we be allowed to choose to use our own internet connection to transmit the data?

Something I wonder about too. I suppose if they use wifi, will there one sort of modem/router for each street or area which is responsible for transmitting that area's data? How can we know that designated modem/router is secure and unhackable?
 
Mynight said:
I thought they were all on the outside anyway :confused:.
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Most aren't in my experience, it depends entirely on where you are, when your house was built, where the utilities enter the building, if you've had an extension, if you've ever had the house rewired etc.

For example on my street some are on the outside (in a bin cupboard), some are internal and require entry into the individual property, and some are in communal service cupboards (in the block of flats down the road).



darael, all meters have to meet quite specific criteria for accuracy and are tested quite carefully at both the design stage, during production and I suspect random units from individual runs are probably tested for years whilst the model is still in use.
Security wise they're using (from memory) a subset of the same security used by mobile phones (and the same basic tech*), but the meters still have their traditional reading method and counter (as in some locations they won't work), so if there is any question about a bill or accuracy the records can be checked as can the meter.
They don't stop putting a human readable display on them just because they've got a wireless connection.



*It's reliable, well tested by now, very cheap and easy to run thanks to the billions of phones sold (I can buy a full mobile for under a tenner, so the cost of incorporating the tech into another device is probably pennies).
 
Apparantly they are cell phone data using rather than wifi(I screwed up op).

So that's me out in my street as its landline/wifi or nothing. I live in a black spot for all telecoms despite living in a fairly big town :confused:
 
HybridX said:
Here here... no arguments as to the bill being wrong and everyone's happy
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or having to jump out of the shower/bed to answer the door to the meter reader, or trying to give the person on the other end of a poor phone line to a noisy call centre a reading, or spending ages trying to get it sorted when the meter reader has mistyped a digit on his PDA and you've suddenly done an extra 3 thousand units, or worse gone round the clock on both your E7 and daytime meter.
 
Doesn't benefit me in the least tbh, submit my reads on time, keep track of my DD relative to costs (let it build up over summer and drain back down in winter). Ironically mind no-one has ever validated the reads from my gas or electricity meter, I guess as long as I am within "tolerances" I don't trigger the need.

Also, what is stop the numbers being fudged, and I'm not just talking hackers here. Extra unit here, extra unit there added on remotely by the company, no-one will notice and it all adds up very quickly. It is an awful lot of trust to place in a corporation unless your isolated traditional meter remains in place as a means to validate.

Also if its mobile data I assume one of the networks will supply the coverage, so if its anyone other than O2 they are SOL around here, might just about manage on 3 if externally mounted.
 
HybridX said:
Haha to be honest its all jargon unless your familiar with it and yes i;m employed by one of the big six lol

All regs are home grown and its a lot more complicated than the media make out and people understand. For example your supplier isnt 1 company its 4 entities.

Supplier: that bills you and who you deal with
Data Collector: That deals with the settlement side and purchase versus sales for the business based on each customers account.
MOP: Meter operator so the chaps that come and change your meter etc
DA: Data aggregator which take the settlement and PVS information from the DC check and collate and send this to Elexon which is the regulating body

To be comical about it you can have British Gas supplying you, Accuread dealing with the data collection and the data aggregation and Scottish power dealing with the meter installation and exchanges etc .... all for one customer. To top it all off you then need to get all these different companies talking together effectively which isn't always the case

Pre De-privatization in 1996 it was actually a lot easier .. if you were in London EDF was the company that suppliers you and did everything part of the above for themselves, there was no choice or option. Post De-privatization its a web of contracts and agreements with companies.

One of the few companies that do the supplier, DC and DA side all in house with only some meter operator areas contract our is EON to be honest and their DC and supplier sides instead of being separate business in separate offices in the country are all under one roof working a lot smoother and a lot more efficiently, but it took 5 years to get the regulatory clearance to allow them to do that and to date are the only company to do this.
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I must be honest and say I think its a bit over complicated having 4 seperate entities running things. Communication is poor within single companies sometimes let alone between 4. However as proved I don't really know enough to comment. I would have thought it would have been like broadband where the vast majority of infrastructure is operated by one company and then sublet to others to cover bills/production and services. Bit to late to change that though :D.

Its surprising how much we take for granted. I always assumed power companies built their generators(whatever type) then just charged the earth for the supply. I wonder if regs standards were dropped if costs could come down.

I won't lie I still fully intend on playing with one of the smart meters before I jump in and say fit one(assuming they have a contingency for black spots like mine).
 
The point of these is so they don't over estimate your bill. Energy companies do this on purpose and make loads of money on the money they owe people from intrest.

I don't pay by direct debit and the last time I gave eon my energy meter readings I owed them a small amount so no rush.
 
soooo what would happen if you secretly lined your meter cupboard with something top jam the signal?
 
HybridX said:
Firstly the suppliers wont ever see the SMART meter data as it will go to a central database not ran by any supplier. So they wont be able to tell when you're cooking etc as you put it. They would only see a daily consumption.
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so one single monopoly data base, so quite easily accessed by government.

given that when they were given the power to control surveillance the local councils started tasking undercover police officers to spy on peoples houses to the degree of recording when their curtains were open to see if they were in the right catchment area for the school their children go to, i can imagine this being abused later.
 
mattyfez said:
I already do, and I have no issue with smart meters, *IF* the cost is met by the suppliers, and *IF* they can clearly show this, and *IF* they can show they are not making money off the back of it.

Smart meters have no clear benefit to the consumer, other than more accurate bills, but bill accuracy has always been in the hands of the consumer by way of submitting readings, so it's not really a benefit.
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I agree with this. Why should I end up having to pay for something that I already have control over anyway?
 
.:MBK:. said:
Doesn't benefit me in the least tbh, submit my reads on time, keep track of my DD relative to costs (let it build up over summer and drain back down in winter). Ironically mind no-one has ever validated the reads from my gas or electricity meter, I guess as long as I am within "tolerances" I don't trigger the need.

Also, what is stop the numbers being fudged, and I'm not just talking hackers here. Extra unit here, extra unit there added on remotely by the company, no-one will notice and it all adds up very quickly. It is an awful lot of trust to place in a corporation unless your isolated traditional meter remains in place as a means to validate.

Also if its mobile data I assume one of the networks will supply the coverage, so if its anyone other than O2 they are SOL around here, might just about manage on 3 if externally mounted.
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Accusing a supplier for adding units is a bit laughable as once caught they would be heavily fined and probably lose their license so no more company. Plus when the smart meters are out the reads arent taken by the supplier but by a third party company
 
Eurofighter said:
The point of these is so they don't over estimate your bill. Energy companies do this on purpose and make loads of money on the money they owe people from intrest.

I don't pay by direct debit and the last time I gave eon my energy meter readings I owed them a small amount so no rush.
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This is a bit comical as estimatations are based on estimated annual consumption and annualised advances... eac/aa which themselves are only based on accurate meter readings and they get checked by the data aggregation side of the supplier hub.

The only way to make sure estimates are more accurate is for the company to have more accurate reads on record. If they only have 1 reading over A year then yes exoect estimates to be miles out.

Again to accusr a supplier of fudging estimates to make money is very laughable and a comment worthy of the Dailymail
 
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