Smart Motorways

[Frozennova]

How are you going to fix the issue of people being dumb? Historically, if you give them something complex, dumb people are dumb. You can't design systems like smart motorways on the assumption that people are perfect and not dumb. That is not the real world smart motorways have to live in.

When someone is killed because their car broke down and a dumb person drives into the back of it, saying "it was the dumb person, not the system that put high speed traffic in the same place as it puts broken down cars" is of very little help to the family left behind. That family might be yours.

I don't disagree, the system as it stands is flawed as overhead signs simply can't react fast enough to an emergency situation.

Some education and forethought would prevent a large majority of those situations though.

As [TW]Fox pointed out, how many breakdowns on a motorway are truly an expected failure rather than simple inadequate maintenance, how many people think to move themselves and other occupants of the car as far away from danger as possible when they do breakdown?

 

[Nasher]

Since when has registering what speed limit is displayed in glowing colours directly above your lane ever been distracting?

Because they change it constantly. It's not just drive up to 70mph any more. One minute it's 50, then 40, then 60, hard shoulder open, hard shoulder closed, for no obvious reason at all.

 

[Conscript]

Because they change it constantly. It's not just drive up to 70mph any more. One minute it's 50, then 40, then 60, hard shoulder open, hard shoulder closed, for no obvious reason at all.

You're acting like each gantry is changing like a fruit machine. It's really not difficult to see what the speed is on the gantry ahead and change your speed accordingly. They step the speeds down to manage and smooth traffic flow.

And as for "...for no obvious reason at all." - has it not occurred to you that if you don't see the reason for the speed limits changing, then the variable speed limits are doing their job? They are slowing down the traffic well in advance of the congestion you are approaching to smooth the traffic flow. That's the whole point, they don't just activate the limit half a mile from the problem, they do it further back. If you slow down as directed, you'll likely never end up having to come to a complete stop in congestion that's a few miles up the road in front of you.

 

[Nasher]

But there was still congestion anyway O_o

 

[robj20]

You're acting like each gantry is changing like a fruit machine. It's really not difficult to see what the speed is on the gantry ahead and change your speed accordingly. They step the speeds down to manage and smooth traffic flow.

And as for "...for no obvious reason at all." - has it not occurred to you that if you don't see the reason for the speed limits changing, then the variable speed limits are doing their job? They are slowing down the traffic well in advance of the congestion you are approaching to smooth the traffic flow. That's the whole point, they don't just activate the limit half a mile from the problem, they do it further back. If you slow down as directed, you'll likely never end up having to come to a complete stop in congestion that's a few miles up the road in front of you.

Very few people understand it, don't worry about it, it's why it mostly doesn't work people ignore it.
They should be average speed cameras as well, M60 people still speed then slam on for the cameras.

 

[Orionaut]

Since when has registering what speed limit is displayed in glowing colours directly above your lane ever been distracting?

Well, one problem is the choice of colours used. 5-10% of Men have a degree of colour blindness.

It is somewhat frustrating that the design of road signs, particularly warning ones, utterly fails to recognise this.

I am sure that with a bit of thought this situation could be significantly improved.

(It is not that colour blind people cannot see Red, it is just that it doesn't stand out or look particularly different to the other colours at that end of the spectrum)

 

[jpaul]

I don't disagree, the system as it stands is flawed as overhead signs simply can't react fast enough to an emergency situation.

but the system is not designed to replace driving with due attention ?

Well, one problem is the choice of colours used. 5-10% of Men have a degree of colour blindness.

if you have a new car it's doing sign recognition, so should circumvent this (do teslas still react to the speed limit signs on the back of lorries)

Because they change it constantly. It's not just drive up to 70mph any more. One minute it's 50, then 40, then 60, hard shoulder open, hard shoulder closed, for no obvious reason at all.

it was a good coffee break read if you're into algorithms -
https://www.atkinsglobal.com/~/medi...3/a-flexible-approach-to-motorway-control.pdf

 

[Conscript]

But there was still congestion anyway O_o

Surely it doesn't need explaining that it won't prevent everyone seeing congestion?

If you're closer to the problem up ahead, then of course you will still run into the congestion. But for traffic further back, they will start to see the speed limits change, and if they slow down, the congestion might have cleared by they time the reach the point where it happened. Thus the perception of that speed limits seem to be shown when there appears to be nothing wrong.

Well, one problem is the choice of colours used. 5-10% of Men have a degree of colour blindness.

It is somewhat frustrating that the design of road signs, particularly warning ones, utterly fails to recognise this.

I sympathise with that, but surely even someone suffering colour blindness can make out the illuminated numbers? Were talking about a white illuminated number against a black background with a red circle...I didn't think these were the combinations of colours usually confused.

 

[Frozennova]

but the system is not designed to replace driving with due attention ?

It isn't, and I pointed out that a large portion of the issue is people not looking far enough ahead

 

[Orionaut]

I sympathise with that, but surely even someone suffering colour blindness can make out the illuminated numbers? Were talking about a white illuminated number against a black background with a red circle...I didn't think these were the combinations of colours usually confused.

The thing that threw me during the course of my first journey wasn't so much the numbers.

Maybe I was unlucky and just caught them at the wrong time, but many of the gantry's refreshed with new numbers just as I was passing through them. (And with instruction to use/not use the hard shoulder too)

Couple that with the fact that, for me anyways, they are all essentially the same colour, It is pretty bloody confusing!

(Especially since this was the first time I had ever driven on a fully operational Smart Motorway. It is fine for people who do this every day. But the system still should allow for the fact that some people do not!)

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I don’t understand how the signs are confusing, they are essentially the same as the metal signs pinned to a pole on the side of the road. They are a damn sight better than the older orange and black electronic warnings signs on other motorways.

 

[Resident]

News today:

Recovery services are to be allowed to use red rear flashers in addition to the normal amber after a campaign in an attempt to boost smart motorway safety. (LINK - Hidden behind a pay-wall though)

Didn't a recent review conclude smart motorways to be more dangerous than first thought? (by Highways Agency, everyone else knew it was a bad idea from the get-go)

The AA has banned it's recovery services from assisting vehicles on smart motorways (back in Jan 2020)

 

[Rroff]

Back in the news again https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-56089258

TBH I don't know why there is any debate on this - regardless of the factors some of which "shouldn't" happen - smart motorways in this country simply do not work with a real risk of resulting in serious incidents.

Some of the people behind them need pull their heads out of their rears.

 

[Nasher]

Scrapping them would mean some politicians admitting they messed up. So they will stick around even though they are dangerous :/

 

[a1ex2001]

Scrapping them would mean some politicians admitting they messed up. So they will stick around even though they are dangerous :/

I don’t think they need scrapping just properly implementing. The original section on the M42 works fine for me for two reasons the hard shoulder is only open at peak times when the road is busy and traffic speeds restricted and the emergency stopping spots are frequent. What I don’t understand is how this then led to the section of the M1 with full time running on the hard shoulder and energy stops a ridiculous distance apart. Something went badly wrong between the pilot and the cheap skate national roll out.

Smart motorways are a good idea they just need to be designed and deployed sensibly.

 

[Minxy]

I personally find the idea of a breakdown on the motorway and having nowhere to go quite frightening particularly relying on being spotted so you/your motor doesn’t get wiped out by someone who hasn’t seen you and is thundering along at 70mph. The escape lanes are too far apart to be useful unless you get lucky and breakdown close to one. How smart motorways ever got signed off as safe amazes me.

 

[Scythe]

I don’t think they need scrapping just properly implementing. The original section on the M42 works fine for me for two reasons the hard shoulder is only open at peak times when the road is busy and traffic speeds restricted and the emergency stopping spots are frequent. What I don’t understand is how this then led to the section of the M1 with full time running on the hard shoulder and energy stops a ridiculous distance apart. Something went badly wrong between the pilot and the cheap skate national roll out.

Smart motorways are a good idea they just need to be designed and deployed sensibly.

fully agree with this. Lane 1 should only be opened by exception, that is during periods of HEAVY traffic when the cameras reduce speeds to 40mph over a prolonged distance.

 

[Nasher]

I personally find the idea of a breakdown on the motorway and having nowhere to go quite frightening particularly relying on being spotted so you/your motor doesn’t get wiped out by someone who hasn’t seen you and is thundering along at 70mph. The escape lanes are too far apart to be useful unless you get lucky and breakdown close to one. How smart motorways ever got signed off as safe amazes me.

The procedure now is get out of the car asap and run for your life.

 

[robj20]

The M60 smart motorway still has the hard shoulder so it must only be a few that are the problem ones.

 

[theone8181]

The procedure now is get out of the car asap and run for your life.

Which I imagine is great fun if your in lane 2 or 3 (of 4).