So, Ferrari were 'not exactly following the spirit of the rules' then?

[Entai]

This exactly.

Though I still wonder what idiot at the FIA thought settling was a good idea. If they couldn't have proven that Ferrari cheated, rule the car legal and add the extra sensor for this year. This surely would have been a better outcome than this detritus show of people and other teams being up in arms over secret settlements and the FIA still not having actually said Ferrari were legal. Yes, innocent until proven guilty so we must treat Ferrari as innocent but I think it says a lot that the FIA have only said they couldn't prove cheating rather than actually say they're innocent.

Which is exactly why there was a settlement.

Exactly as MissChief said

FIA ‘We know you’re cheating, we just can’t prove it. We’d rather not spent months and millions of pounds proving this, please stop cheating. We won’t take it any further and you won’t be punished with points reduction or fines’

Ferrari ‘Seems fair. We’ll stop what we were doing. This is not an admittance of guilt or that we were cheating though’

It's far simpler to get Ferrari to stop what they were doing via a settlement, than declare the car legal, make it very public and have all teams spend millions trying to copy the same thing for just one year.

the whole pint of the new rules next year is to reduce costs, not make teams spend even more trying to emulate what one team found.


As no doubt like DAS next year either the rules will most likely prohibit whatever was going on any way, or even more likely the FIA will fit their extra sensor to all cars next year.

 

[englishpremier]

I was thinking that. Does F1 need the FIA from a legal standpoint?

They can't it's an FIA series.

What they could do instead is start their own series, but since they are the current rights holder there is probably a clause in their contract with the FIA against doing that.

 

[hominid]

As no doubt like DAS next year either the rules will most likely prohibit whatever was going on any way, or even more likely the FIA will fit their extra sensor to all cars next year.

The extra fuel flow sensor is in the car this year, in the fuel tank iirc, so Ferrari cannot do the same thing this year at all. Only the FIA have access and can read it in real time.

The best way to reduce costs is to keep stable rules, forcing teams to produce/R&D a new car is massively expensive so that doesn't make sense. Also you said the FIA doesn't have evidence, you cannot know what or not the FIA has! They may know exactly what they are doing via whistle-blowers, which has been reported, they have all the Traces from the races/quali, so they can see, just like all the other teams, that Ferrari were too fast for the fuel flow limit. I know Ferrari said it's due to their low drag car but I don't buy that one bit, why did that advantage dissapear after Austin?

Also, with Jean Tote being the FIA head and ex Ferrari team manager is it at all surprising that they effectively let them off? If they had even a hint of suspicion then they should have pursued it, taken the cost of the investigation out of Ferrari's payments(if found guilty) - job done. I don't care about it being a scandal, I just want everyone treated the same way, I know that's a laugh with the FIA, as others have been treated much more harshly for lesser 'offenses'.

As it stands the FIA are incapable of policing their own series, simple as that.

 

[SonicSW20]

Conspiracist nonsense.

This is a similar situation to the 1994 Benetton launch control software contraversy. LC existed in the ECU code, but that in itself was not illegal. Using the LC system would have been illegal. Benetton claimed that there was no way their driver could activate the system in race conditions and it was effectively legacy code from testing. FIA could not prove that LC was ever used in a race despite having access to the ECU itself, logs etc.

FIA can't do **** unless they can prove that a team cheated during a race or qualifying session. In this case it seems clear that the FIA know how Ferrari could have cheated, but do not have enough if any evidence that they did it during a race.

 

[Greboth]

Which is exactly why there was a settlement.

Exactly as MissChief said

It's far simpler to get Ferrari to stop what they were doing via a settlement, than declare the car legal, make it very public and have all teams spend millions trying to copy the same thing for just one year.

the whole pint of the new rules next year is to reduce costs, not make teams spend even more trying to emulate what one team found.

As no doubt like DAS next year either the rules will most likely prohibit whatever was going on any way, or even more likely the FIA will fit their extra sensor to all cars next year.

That line should be taken in conjunction with what I said before that.

It wasn't a case that the FIA knew they cheated and didn't want to spend millions providing it, if you read the second statement it is more - the FIA had "suspicions that the Scuderia Ferrari PU could be considered as not operating within the limits of the FIA regulations at all times" but having perform "extensive and thorough investigation" they FIA couldn't "provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach".

Keep in mind that the FIA had an entire Ferrari PU to look over and investigate. So I'll ask again - why, if they cannot after all that prove Ferrari cheated, did the FIA not rule the Ferrari legal? They have already changed the rules for this year (not next) by fitting an additional sensor so Ferrari couldn't continue doing what the FIA think they were doing and no other team could copy anyway.

The other teams wouldn't necessarily be happy with the outcome but the situation would have been investigated and now closed and all the teams obviously know the FIA have taken steps with the second sensor to stop Ferrari "cheating". Do you not think that all of this fuss and potential additional legal action from the other teams could have been avoided if the FIA had simply said the car was legal? Which brings me back to my comment of, I think it's telling that the FIA haven't yet said the car was legal.

 

[Entai]

The FIA had huge suspicions (along with almost every other team in the paddock, and many spectators and commentators etc) that Ferrari had cheated, they just could not prove it.

It would be idiotic to then define a highly suspect car as legal.


You could have an entire car for many years and still never prove that Ferrari cheated, if the only way that the cheat activated was under certain circumstances when the car was running on a track.

The instant the FIA put a second sensor on to record during races, Ferrari lost power as obviously the cheat was never used, as it would be idiotic of Ferrari to use it when it could be unequivocally proven to exist.


If you suspect something is illegal, and have a pretty darn good idea what is going on, but cannot prove it, why would you call it legal ??

That would just be stupid, you just make it so that the suspected thing cannot happen any more, but that is as far as you can go.

You cannot penalise anyone as there is nothing proven, to be penalised.

 

[JBeck]

FIA ‘We know you’re cheating, we just can’t prove it. We’d rather not spent months and millions of pounds proving this, please stop cheating. We won’t take it any further and you won’t be punished with points reduction or fines’

Ferrari ‘Seems fair. We’ll stop what we were doing. This is not an admittance of guilt or that we were cheating though’

Seems plausible, but so does 'we knew you were cheating' and Ferrari saying 'You let it out we'll walk, and the whole world knows the FIA don't want to lose Ferrari', and the reply 'Okay we'll keep it secret and make up a cryptic excuse'.

Just sayin...

Anyway there's a great article on RF right now about it.

 

[Greboth]

If you suspect something is illegal, and have a pretty darn good idea what is going on, but cannot prove it, why would you call it legal ??That would just be stupid

Because as much as we (fans, journalists etc.) talk about things being in the grey area or loopholes etc. The FIA operate F1 under a binary set of regulations - a car is either legal or illegal. If the car hasn't been proven to be illegal surely it must therefore be legal?

you just make it so that the suspected thing cannot happen any more, but that is as far as you can go.

On this we agree.

You cannot penalise anyone as there is nothing proven, to be penalised.

Now it just seems you're making my point for me.


I think it's safe to say that at best Ferrari sailed extremely close to the wind on legality, at worst flat out cheated. Given the reputational damage that this secret settlement has done the sport and all the potential future legal proceedings - do you not think it would have been better for the FIA to simply have ruled the car legal and continue with the second sensor?

 

[Flibster]

Unsurprisingly, it's not going away. The teams have responded to the FIA - Contents of the letter are still confidential, but is believed to ask several questions and have a deadline for a response.

• why the FIA felt it was unable to prove its doubts about the Ferrari engine's legality
• why the settlement it reached was confidential rather than communicated more widely
• whether the integrity of the finishing order of last year's championship should be questioned
• what the FIA's failure to get to the facts on the question of the engine's legality says about the governing body's ability to police the sport's technical regulations

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51762454

 

[hominid]

Unsurprisingly, it's not going away. The teams have responded to the FIA - Contents of the letter are still confidential, but is believed to ask several questions and have a deadline for a response.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51762454

totally understandable!

 

[mmj_uk]

If the FIA couldn't prove that Ferrari cheated then why did Ferrari settle with such an agreement? it would look better for Ferrari to be dragged through the courts denying any wrongdoing at all unless the FIA have something pretty damning to show.

I think it's a case of like some others have said, the FIA know exactly how Ferrari cheated but just cannot prove that it actually occurred during last season because Ferrari fooled their anti-cheating measures. I still think it would be better for the integrity of the sport for the FIA to have released their findings though.

 

[SonicSW20]

Because doing so would probably result in more information about their PU public than they are comfortable with.

 

[MissChief]

Because doing so would probably result in more information about their PU public than they are comfortable with.

Quite. It's likely any court hearing would be open to the public and front and centre in the public gallery would be Honda, Renault and Mercedes-Benz engineers scribbling down everything they see and hear.

 

[Flibster]

And the FIA's World Motorsport Council have added their comment.

FIA Formula One World Championship

Settlement Agreement between the FIA and Scuderia Ferrari

The Council expressed unanimous support for the FIA President and the FIA Technical Department in regard to the overall management of the case, and strongly opposed any comments that undermine the reputation and image of the FIA and the Formula One World Championship.

So the FIA WMSC approves of the FIA's decision... Anyone surprised? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

 

[mmj_uk]

Because doing so would probably result in more information about their PU public than they are comfortable with.

All they have to do is give a very brief statement of what they found not release blueprints of the Ferrari engine. If you're referring to it going to court then whatever Ferrari did will be banned so why would they need to worry about the specifics of how they did it? I'm sure the FIA could argue their case without exposing sensitive details of how other areas of the engine operates.

I think the reason for the secret agreement is it's highly embarrassing to both parties (FIA look incompetent and Ferrari look like cheats) but by avoiding embarrassment you have the rest of the teams whose concerns are being ignored and F1 is looking more like a corrupt business than a fair sport.

 

[The_Abyss]

I think the reason for the secret agreement is it's highly embarrassing to both parties (FIA look incompetent and Ferrari look like cheats)

That's exactly the outcome. The FIA, once again, look incompetent and Ferrari look like cheats.

And the beat goes on...

 

[Greboth]

And the FIA's World Motorsport Council have added their comment.

FIA Formula One World Championship

Settlement Agreement between the FIA and Scuderia Ferrari

The Council expressed unanimous support for the FIA President and the FIA Technical Department in regard to the overall management of the case, and strongly opposed any comments that undermine the reputation and image of the FIA and the Formula One World Championship.

So the FIA WMSC approves of the FIA's decision... Anyone surprised? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Ofcourse the WMSC strongy oppose anything that undermine the reputation and image of the FIA and F1! We all know the FIA have a monopoly on doing that themselves and we shouldn't let anyone else do it to them.

 

[englishpremier]

Quite. It's likely any court hearing would be open to the public and front and centre in the public gallery would be Honda, Renault and Mercedes-Benz engineers scribbling down everything they see and hear.

It wouldn't because the FIA don't use official public courts or anything has anything to do with actual laws of the land. Instead they make up their own like the International Court of Appeal and International Tribunal. these are private FIA 'courts; with little to do with real laws.

It's a bit like when the FIA's kangaroo court or in this case the so called 'World Council' issued a lifetime ban to Flavio Briatorie, who then took the FIA to an actual real court

 

[deuse]

I was thinking that. Does F1 need the FIA from a legal standpoint?

No one needs the fia.

Wonder if the teams will now hold off signing the 2021 contacts?

 

[JBeck]

It's far simpler to get Ferrari to stop what they were doing via a settlement, than declare the car legal, make it very public and have all teams spend millions trying to copy the same thing for just one year.

The FIA have not declared the car legal? This is the whole point of the argument.
They wouldn't have to make the actual technology used public so there would be no copying of anything, all they needed to say was 'the car was found to be legal/illegal' which they haven't, they have instead dodged around it with cryptic and suspicious statements.

This is the whole point of all the backlash.