Social Mobility - you what mate

Soldato
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Social mobility for the few or social equality for the many?

This has been in the news recently and had me wondering. Is this the tipping point for us where we reach massive disparity between the rich and poor ? I mean to the point where it's irreversible. The UK population is 66.5m and from north to south the is massive economical disparity. Where you are born, go school etc has an effect your future prospects. There are however a few outliers they make it, those rags to rich stories. However, for the majority this is not the case.
The Margaret Thatcher era allowed for Council Housing to be sold. This allowed for many working class people to jump in social mobility. Enabling their future generations of today to reap in the equity gained from house prices rise.

My issue is government both red/blue seem to have put a stop to this. They are actually putting policies to stop the ordinary Brit from excelling. Example is university fees, stopping Education maintenance allowance for kids and also inheritance tax on people that only have the house to their family name.

Very interested in other people thoughts and opinions on this matter.
 
Man of Honour
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I don't think it's a deliberate intention to stop people excelling or progressing. What I think its happening is that we need increasing amouints of tax to (1) Pay for an ever increasing social welfare system, (2) Pay an ever increasing interest bill on money we borrowed in the past. Money we borrow as a nation today has to be paid back tomorrow by our kids. Well guess what? We have to pay back the money borrowed a couple of decades ago. That leaves less and less for the rest of us to survive on because taxes have to increase to pay for it.

National debt isn't free and we're now paying it back.

If you ever hear politicians offering you the world on a stick then only vote for it if you want to vote for your children to be handed a massive great big bill.
 
Associate
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Re: tuition fees... Having paid ~£25k back in tuition fees before the current system was introduced, I think the current system is actually very fair. You only pay back if you do really well and earn a decent salary. Whilst the headline overall bill is larger, you don't need to pay it back if on low wage (or only some of it proportionate to earnings).
Seems fair to me.
 
Soldato
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14,242
My issue is government both red/blue seem to have put a stop to this. They are actually putting policies to stop the ordinary Brit from excelling. Example is university fees, stopping Education maintenance allowance for kids and also inheritance tax on people that only have the house to their family name.

Very interested in other people thoughts and opinions on this matter.

It's far too early to say if changes to university fee's are stopping social mobility, I would argue the opposite in fact. Compared to when universities were 'free' there are now far more places and choice. Far more people are going to uni than ever before from all backgrounds. The fee's are structured as a tax rather than a loan, they don't have to be paid back if you don't earn enough money. Also remember universities were never free and were paid for from general taxation and back when this case the case more of it came from the lower end of the population that it does now because of changes to taxation for low earners (ie. it has been reduced...).

The rules on inheritance tax have actually been made much more fair 'for the many' under the latest government and only those with a 'proper' amount of wealth actually fall into the scope of it now. You only pay the tax if your estate is over £325k and if you leave your home to your children this increases to £425k. I really don't see this as a factor that effects people from poor backgrounds becoming socially mobile.

I would have thought a bigger factor would be the attitude of young people, especially from those areas that are not considered socially mobile. Also life choices that are made at an early age will have a huge effect on how things pan out which includes everything from getting your head down at school to not spending all your money on holidays and the latest phone instead of saving for a house deposit both of which are really common among young people.

Social mobility can not just be given and those that want it have to work hard for it.
 
Caporegime
Joined
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58,912
I don't think IHT is stopping social mobility - if anything a tax on wealth is there to try and act against dynastic wealth

the current university fees set up where there is nothing to be paid up front isn't really a blocker either

the lack of house building/affordable housing on the other hand is a problem but isn't really mentioned in the OP
 
Associate
Joined
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2,332
I don't think IHT is stopping social mobility - if anything a tax on wealth is there to try and act against dynastic wealth

the current university fees set up where there is nothing to be paid up front isn't really a blocker either

the lack of house building/affordable housing on the other hand is a problem but isn't really mentioned in the OP

I absolutely agree with the affordable housing. The poorer in society, people who actually work in low paying jobs, are saddled with paying exorbitant rents to private landlords for what are quite often sub-standard accommodation. On top of that they are likely to be paying for energy using top up cards which is also the most expensive way to buy fuel.

Selling the council houses did help to put people on the property ladder and into equity but it has robbed future generations of housing stock. House builders aren't interested in building affordable homes, they want to extract the most profitable available from the land. There's nothing wrong in that, it's their prerogative to make a profit. So government has to step in and produce new homes, either as council houses or for shared ownership purchase so that people aren't being held over a barrel by private landlords.

I've not got a problem with private landlords, they're a part of the economy but I think the balance between private rental and council tenancy needs to be altered. Private landlords are great for transient workers who intend to stay in one place for a few months or years and then move on. But for a low income worker looking to lay down roots they need to have an option to get started
 
Soldato
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Location
Essex
Social mobility for the few or social equality for the many?

This has been in the news recently and had me wondering. Is this the tipping point for us where we reach massive disparity between the rich and poor ? I mean to the point where it's irreversible. The UK population is 66.5m and from north to south the is massive economical disparity. Where you are born, go school etc has an effect your future prospects. There are however a few outliers they make it, those rags to rich stories. However, for the majority this is not the case.
The Margaret Thatcher era allowed for Council Housing to be sold. This allowed for many working class people to jump in social mobility. Enabling their future generations of today to reap in the equity gained from house prices rise.

My issue is government both red/blue seem to have put a stop to this. They are actually putting policies to stop the ordinary Brit from excelling. Example is university fees, stopping Education maintenance allowance for kids and also inheritance tax on people that only have the house to their family name.

Very interested in other people thoughts and opinions on this matter.

I generally disagree. University is more accessible than it ever was. The debts aren't like 'normal debt' you only pay if you earn over £25k, isn't the average UK wage £28k? Doesn't seem like a bad deal to me, I would be in favour of replacing the loans with just a 'graduate tax' considering the current stats on the amount of people who actually will pay off their student loans... especially as interest rates will inevitably rise.

I'm a firm believer that although relative poverty has increased and the gap between rich and poor has increased, that absolute poverty has decreased (haven't seen stats on this though and I guess 'absolute poverty' is hard to measure). I also agree with the Thatcher thing (watch the vid she explains it better than me) where say for example the average wage of everyone in the country was £20, the poorest would be around £10, and the richest around £100. That if you try to forcibly narrow the gap (forced wealth distribution) you'd end up with the rich on say £50, the average at £15 and the poorest at £5. I think EU Immigration has a big impact on lower paid jobs too, but that's another discussion.

I'm being simplistic but generally I do believe that if you let people go off and excel and create businesses and encourage environments where businesses can thrive. That will bring about cheaper products for consumers due to competition and jobs for more people.

God I read what I just wrote and think to myself when did I become so right wing...?

And as for this tying into social mobility. In a working environment that is becoming more technological and more complex, I think it's very easy for the naturally very intelligent to be 'socially mobile'. Something needs to be done about those who aren't. Stop telling kids they 'have' to go to university to get a good job. Make efforts to remove the societal stigma around apprenticeships, but also do something to revive some manufacturing in this country :/
 
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Deleted member 66701

D

Deleted member 66701

Tuition fees should in no way affect social mobility.

The only reason why they might is because of peoples misconceptions or not understanding how the system works (which if that's the case, they probably aren't cut out for Uni anyway).

I think it's very easy for the naturally very intelligent to be 'socially mobile'. Something needs to be done about those who aren't. Stop telling kids they 'have' to go to university to get a good job. Make efforts to remove the societal stigma around apprenticeships, but also do something to revive some manufacturing in this country :/

This does always make me laugh, as it seems to be the standard "if you aren't intelligent, go on an apprenticeship and learn a trade". Well, I don't know about you, but I've never met a thick plumber or electrician (I would imagine thick electricians don't stay around long though!).
 
Soldato
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This does always make me laugh, as it seems to be the standard "if you aren't intelligent, go on an apprenticeship and learn a trade". Well, I don't know about you, but I've never met a thick plumber or electrician (I would imagine thick electricians don't stay around long though!).

I'm not calling them thick. The massive decline of manufacturing, which a lot of it is highly skilled work, hasn't left as many meaningful careers for those who don't want to go to university. Way more kids are going to university and 20-30 years ago some of them wouldn't have, and they would have had very good careers. Don't get me wrong I believe that ultimately making university accessible to all is a fantastic thing, but at the same time people turn their noses up at apprenticeships and other 'non-academic' career paths and that stigma really shouldn't be there, plenty of kids go to university because they feel like there's no other option for them... The attitude in Germany is very different (and better IMO). Skilled labourers are cherished and appreciated and are no way stigmatized. Here there's a massive snobbery.

As for you thinking that I'm making the general point that "If you aren't intelligent, go on an apprenticeship". I'm not saying that... Some highly intelligent people don't go to university, some highly intelligent people don't go on apprenticeships. Ultimately a lot of it is down to individual choice. But there are plenty of stats out there that suggest that people who have higher IQs tend to go to university a lot more often and as a result are far less likely to commit crime, far more likely to have stable families/marriages, and more likely to earn higher wages aka middle class bliss. Which means that as a society we reward intelligence far more than we used to. Gone are the days where it doesn't matter if you're born a genius, you'll go and do whatever your Dad did because that's just the way it is. My dads a grocer, I'll be a grocer. People's lives are being 'sorted', generally, the moment they go to school and start doing tests which immediately divides society.

Edited: I put far less likely to have stable families/marriages, it's meant to be far more likely*
 
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Soldato
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On the Amiga500
I don't think it's a deliberate intention to stop people excelling or progressing. What I think its happening is that we need increasing amouints of tax to (1) Pay for an ever increasing social welfare system, (2) Pay an ever increasing interest bill on money we borrowed in the past. Money we borrow as a nation today has to be paid back tomorrow by our kids. Well guess what? We have to pay back the money borrowed a couple of decades ago. That leaves less and less for the rest of us to survive on because taxes have to increase to pay for it.

National debt isn't free and we're now paying it back.

If you ever hear politicians offering you the world on a stick then only vote for it if you want to vote for your children to be handed a massive great big bill.
But the messiah promises so much. He's such a friendly guy.
 
Caporegime
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Tuition fees should in no way affect social mobility.

The only reason why they might is because of peoples misconceptions or not understanding how the system works (which if that's the case, they probably aren't cut out for Uni anyway).



This does always make me laugh, as it seems to be the standard "if you aren't intelligent, go on an apprenticeship and learn a trade". Well, I don't know about you, but I've never met a thick plumber or electrician (I would imagine thick electricians don't stay around long though!).

exactly just dont pay them back right? :p
 
Soldato
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You can achieve anything you want if you put the effort in.. The majority of students i have come accross do no extra reading, leave their work to the last minute and their engagement with actual lectures/seminars is minimal.
They often leave work till the last minute and achieve mediocre grades, this continues in to the working world.

Those who do excel and achieve great things, are the ones who have absolute discipline and are driven to succeed.. It is a fallacy to blame the "position" of many of exterior forces.. you get where you want to get to by working hard.. that is it..

I was earning over £40,000 a year at 21 years old because i worked DAMN HARD.. 80+ hour weeks to get to where i was, then offered a choice between being a regional insurance director for the north of england for the company i was working for, or taking the lead in the marketing department (yes very different roles)..

But all of that was achieved with no prior experience or qualifications, but hard work.. I ended up leaving it all because i had to care for a dying family member.. but it does not detract from the point..
 
Permabanned
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There have always been, and will always be, three classes of people.
- The top 1%
- The successful people who work hard
- The unsuccessful people who'd rather whine than work
The top 1% controls political parties, so no matter who is in power, they win.
The other two parties take turns to keep a balance, so people feel like they're making progress, but never actually are.
There's nothing stopping someone from advancing under the right conditions, the problem is the conditions are usually not right, if your parent are lazy they aren't going to push you to better yourself, and so it continues.
 
Soldato
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3,034
There have always been, and will always be, three classes of people.
- The top 1%
- The successful people who work hard
- The unsuccessful people who'd rather whine than work
The top 1% controls political parties, so no matter who is in power, they win.
The other two parties take turns to keep a balance, so people feel like they're making progress, but never actually are.
There's nothing stopping someone from advancing under the right conditions, the problem is the conditions are usually not right, if your parent are lazy they aren't going to push you to better yourself, and so it continues.

I genuinely believe the gap between the 1% and the "successful people who work hard" can be bridged by simply working very hard. Not everyone is made to lead the country..

And as far as "rich staying rich" there are many studies that prove that generational inheritence is often lost within 1-2 generations, i.e. hiltons won't be rich in 50 years, there is almost a convection current to put the 1% where they are.
 
Associate
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I think the phrase 'the top 1%' is misleading, and has been used by the media in particular to imply that everyone who earns over a certain figure is privileged and somehow uses their influence (either political or as an 'employer') to ensure that they stay rich and everyone else stays poor.

Sure, there are some very wealthy 'bosses' who make their wealth by exploiting low-paid workers. Equally, there are people like some buy-to-let landlords who make considerably more than the minimum 'top 1%' figure, whilst arguably exploiting lower-paid people (and arguably the benefit system).

Some politicians will earn less than the 'top 1%' figure, but have a lot of control and influence over what happens to the general population, and sometime abuse their position (e.g. expenses scandal).

However, there are plenty of 'professional' people who earn a figure sufficient to get them into the top 1% of earnings (per the ONS figures https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...1-to-99-for-total-income-before-and-after-tax ), but they are just hardworking employed people who happen to have jobs which places a high value on their skills. Consultant surgeons who also do some private work on the side would also fall into this category, as would some lawyers/judges, senior eductation/university staff etc. These people will (in the main) all pay their full share of tax under PAYE. Should all of these people be subject to derision too because of what they earn?
 
Caporegime
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It's only in recent years that I've started becoming slightly more disciplined and I know I'm nowhere near hard working, I don't think many of us realise what hard work actually is, going to an office and slugging away at a keyboard for 8 hours, 5 days a week certainly isn't unless all of that time is used to near enough the best of your efficiency and is actually producing something of relative worth, if it isn't then you likely aren't very smart and should be looking to spend time to improve yourself, but then coming home after tiring yourself out with mind numbing work is always going to raise a challenge in self-discipline.

Having the ability to force yourself into doing something in your own time that will over a number of years likely free you of financial worry, self-loathing and more often than not a poor mental state is where many people fall. They believe it's not possible for themselves and that only the lucky ever get to those positions. There are far too many distractions, poor diets and lack of exercise leading to cognitive and physical problems which leave you tired and unable to focus, outside influences like partners holding you back as they want all of your time, the list is endless.

Surely even if you know the top 1% or even 10% is unlikely you can acknowledge the fact that achieving an above average salary is attainable as long as you don't live an average life doing what the average Joe does as well.
 
Soldato
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Location
Cambridgeshire
There have always been, and will always be, three classes of people.
- The top 1%
- The successful people who work hard
- The unsuccessful people who'd rather whine than work
The top 1% controls political parties, so no matter who is in power, they win.
The other two parties take turns to keep a balance, so people feel like they're making progress, but never actually are.
There's nothing stopping someone from advancing under the right conditions, the problem is the conditions are usually not right, if your parent are lazy they aren't going to push you to better yourself, and so it continues.

Tony is a hard worker, he earns somewhere above minimum wage due the need for flexibility as he is also the primary carer for his disabled wife. He works 45 hour weeks, he would work more but his wife's care needs require him to be at home. He doesn't own a property so rents on the private market. The household receives some benefits due to his wife's condition but he also has two school age children to support, further limiting his ability to take on additional work. He doesn't have the time or money to retrain and, whilst he has been applying for higher paid work a messy upbringing has meant that he is not confident in his ability to write and as such his CV leaves a lot to desire, as does his perceived skillset. Due to the factors above the household join the 21.6% of people in the Country deemed to be living in relative poverty, Tony's family probably fall towards the extreme edge of this.

He has considered moving to a cheaper area or to a location where he might have greater prospects, however he is nervous about uprooting the kids, would need to give up the already limited support network in the local area which helps him with his responsibilities, and also lacks the capital to pay for moving fees, another deposit etc.

Tony is completely fictional but entirely plausible. Which of your three categories does he fit into?

I think the desire to fit everybody into these little pockets is part of the problem, it's not a case of identifying problem demographics (e.g. why aren't more BME background young people opting to attend university? Not the be all and end all of education but it impacts on statistics further down the line like BME CEOs). The issue is around deleting barriers to entry, because a lot of the barriers to social mobility are shared across high priority demographics. For instance in poorer families and ethnic minority families there is a need for young people to start earning ASAP to help support the family, so if we're trying to encourage that person to forgo work for a while in order to pursue further education then what are we doing to support those families? The apprenticeship route is one option but even with the move away from manual vocations what do we do in the case of a child from a poor background with a gift for the sciences? Grant funding won't cut it.

There's no easy answer, and I'm not sure, even with all the rhetoric, that there's a will within the political classes to really address this. Ironically is we can promote social mobility towards the political class then the problem would likely take off. More people coming from poorer backgrounds should mean a better understanding and a greater will within Westminster.
 
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