Social Mobility - you what mate

rubberduck · 7 Dec 2017 at 23:57

Energize said:
Well the state isn't picking up the tab, that's the idea of a student loan. And that same argument can be applied to funding a first degree.

If their first degree did not get them above minimum wage it is unlikely their second degree will make much difference, especially as their debt will be more than double. Let's assume a best case scenario where they go on to be a GP earning £90k for 30 years.... They probably would not pay off the £150k combined student loan i.e. the tax payer would have to fund it.

Energize · 8 Dec 2017 at 01:49

rubberduck said:
If their first degree did not get them above minimum wage it is unlikely their second degree will make much difference, especially as their debt will be more than double. Let's assume a best case scenario where they go on to be a GP earning £90k for 30 years.... They probably would not pay off the £150k combined student loan i.e. the tax payer would have to fund it.

If someone was earning £90k their extra tax revenues would cover the loan value many times over, so if anything that example would support the argument that 2nd degrees should be funded via student loans.

But I was only going to go as far as tuition fees since that is the change that the government has made in the last few years resulting in unaffordable degrees. Previously people could afford £3k a year for a second degree.

dowie · 8 Dec 2017 at 02:23

Energize said:
There are a lot of careers that require a degree, so while it's not a guarantee it is often a prerequisite.

it isn't really that often and in most cases there will be appropriate graduate courses that will let you convert and for which you can get funding

not to mention people can often study part time and therefore spread the cost of fees and not worry about living expenses as they'll still be working full time

Efour · 8 Dec 2017 at 05:35

This is one of those constructs to keep wage slaves dreams alive.

Nowadays pretty much every one has an ok lifestyle, even if you are being supported b the state, you won't die on the streets, mostly.

So now we add a layer "social mobility" better your pitiful life and enrich your pitiful existence.

Such an outmoded British load of bs.

Education is the key to a better society. Free quality education is a massive investment in your citizens. Educated people make better life choices. Yet in the UK it's still seen as a burden, still a massive money spinner.

h4rm0ny · 8 Dec 2017 at 10:27

SPG said:
The welfare system in terms of percentages is nothing.

You sound like an Antifa person I know. Welfare is around 25% of where our tax money goes. 32% if you include State Pensions. That's not nothing, it's huge.

Ayahuasca · 8 Dec 2017 at 10:45

Efour said:
Education is the key to a better society. Free quality education is a massive investment in your citizens. Educated people make better life choices. Yet in the UK it's still seen as a burden, still a massive money spinner.

Whilst this is true we've been through a stage of free education and very low-cost education as well, I can't speak on the quality of our universities but I'd imagine it's not that far below the standard of countries like Germany. What good is educating masses of people if there's no industry or areas for them to progress in to, our economy doesn't support the growth required to give all these educated people employment related to their area of study, many of our well-educated students in STEM subjects are snapped up by companies, small businesses and universities abroad to apply their trade and if they aren't headhunted many of them will seek a move. A strange conundrum where many international STEM students choose our universities to study so we must be providing a respectable level of education.

Vonhelmet · 8 Dec 2017 at 10:46

h4rm0ny said:
You sound like an Antifa person I know. Welfare is around 25% of where our tax money goes. 32% if you include State Pensions. That's not nothing, it's huge.

What do you suggest as an alternative?

h4rm0ny · 8 Dec 2017 at 12:02

Vonhelmet said:
What do you suggest as an alternative?

I'm not suggesting anything as an alternative. I'm telling someone that they are factually and massively wrong. What do you suggest as an alternative?

Vonhelmet · 8 Dec 2017 at 12:05

h4rm0ny said:
I'm not suggesting anything as an alternative. I'm telling someone that they are factually and massively wrong. What do you suggest as an alternative?

Ah, OK. Yes, he was wrong in that regard.

SPG · 8 Dec 2017 at 12:08

h4rm0ny said:
You sound like an Antifa person I know. Welfare is around 25% of where our tax money goes. 32% if you include State Pensions. That's not nothing, it's huge.

Only 11% out... Nice try though.

https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_budget_pie_chart

We have to spend the money on something.....

Irish_Tom · 8 Dec 2017 at 13:28

SPG said:
Only 11% out... Nice try though.

Although @h4m0ny actually underestimated the total bill if you include pensions…

High Social Mobility depends on a populace that is:

Healthy — both mentally and physically
Educated — numerate and literate, not necessarily to Higher Education level
Working — in a high-growth, high-productivity economy
With disposable income — this is partly linked to 'working' above, but also requires that the cost of living (housing, food and transport) isn't prohibitive.

None of these issues are going to be solved without serious government intervention. The failed experiment of 'trickle-down economics' from successive governments shows that we need some new thinking from those in power.

SPG · 8 Dec 2017 at 13:41

Pension is not welfare, everyone who works puts into the system to support the generation before you and rightly so. Grouping it into welfare in this conversation is tenuous at best.

Vonhelmet · 8 Dec 2017 at 14:00

SPG said:
Pension is not welfare, everyone who works puts into the system to support the generation before you and rightly so. Grouping it into welfare in this conversation is tenuous at best.

Pensions clearly are welfare. We pay for people who are too old to work just the same as we pay for people who are too ill to work or too out of work to work.

SPG · 8 Dec 2017 at 14:20

Ohhh how nice you are...

Yes its really bad being too old, too ill.......a massive drain, working all your life and receiving something for your efforts (which you have put into anyway) is so so wrong..

Vonhelmet · 8 Dec 2017 at 14:27

SPG said:
Ohhh how nice you are...

Yes its really bad being too old, too ill.......a massive drain, working all your life and receiving something for your efforts (which you have put into anyway) is so so wrong..

Ha. I didn't pass any judgement, I didn't say it was wrong. . The point is pensions are there to support you beyond your working life.

Given that you think it's a bad thing to class pensions as welfare, I can only assume you have a problem with the concept of welfare.

h4rm0ny · 8 Dec 2017 at 15:07

SPG said:
Only 11% out... Nice try though.

https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_budget_pie_chart

We have to spend the money on something.....

From your link... "In 2018 the three biggest government spendings are..."

Please re-read what I wrote. I said of how are taxes are spent welfare is around 25%. (source I also explicitly separated out State pensions which would bring it to 32%. And yes, it is a form of welfare but I called it out as separate before the context of this discussion is Social Mobility so it's meaningfully different. That said, your statement that "welfare is nothing" would include it. I was being generous.

h4rm0ny · 8 Dec 2017 at 15:10

Vonhelmet said:
Given that you think it's a bad thing to class pensions as welfare, I can only assume you have a problem with the concept of welfare.

I suspect given their assertion that the Welfare system is "in terms of percentages nothing" being exactly the ignorance / lies I here from Antifa types, they're coming from the angle that any suggestion people on welfare are a burden has to be attacked because it's all the fault of capitalists who are taking more than their share. That's supposition of course, but it's where I usually here this rubbish from.

Vonhelmet · 8 Dec 2017 at 15:18

Welfare is of course a burden, but that’s the point of civilised society - that burden is spread over everyone for the benefit of everyone.

Deleted member 66701 · 8 Dec 2017 at 15:30

SPG said:
Pension is not welfare, everyone who works puts into the system to support the generation before you and rightly so. Grouping it into welfare in this conversation is tenuous at best.

If you want to be pedantic, it's not welfare, it's social security.

But social security sounds too nice, so the tories started to frame it as welfare after they successful got the public to make negative associations with the word.

Deleted member 66701 · 8 Dec 2017 at 15:33

SPG said:
Pension is not welfare, everyone who works puts into the system to support the generation before you and rightly so. Grouping it into welfare in this conversation is tenuous at best.

So by that argument, anyone who claims dla, pip, income support, jsa or UC at age 50 after having worked for 30+ years isn't claiming "welfare" either?

Social Mobility - you what mate

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