Solskjær... on borrowed time + board/ownership issues

[fez]

The thing is Baz, I am quite happy to slate our players when they are not up to scratch but if you don't think Fred has been great for a large part of this season of that McTominay hasn't been great for a lot of this season you haven't been watching United very much. We have a squad that should be easily in the top 4 this season (partly based on everyone apart from Liverpool being largely **** this season).

What was the reason for the best form in the league patch last season when Ole took over? Was that just people playing far above their capability? No, it was a good bunch of players that were playing with a lot of energy, enjoying their football and having a new manager bounce. Now Ole has "coached" them we are seeing the fruits of his influence. When top players come to United and look crap, is that because they have suddenly lost their ability or is it the lack of structure to the team and the way we play. There are players in the first XI at the moment that are not good enough for a mid-table side but our first XI is good.

 

[BaZ87]

I've watched pretty much all of your games and it would appear that our definition of great differs greatly. Fred has done well but he's not been great and McTominay certainly hasn't.

The benchmark for Utd has to be that of their best sides of the last 20 years or the best sides of their rivals over that period. That's surely where Utd aspire to be, not simply 4th by default because Spurs and Arsenal have had poorer seasons. Theres not a chance in hell that these players are being talked about as great in any genuinely great side which was ultimately the point I was making. They'd be reliable squad players but not players that should be pivotal to the success of Utd's season and the fact that they're being talked about like that shows how far away Utd are front the top.

 

[adam cool dude]

I've watched pretty much all of your games and it would appear that our definition of great differs greatly. Fred has done well but he's not been great and McTominay certainly hasn't.

The benchmark for Utd has to be that of their best sides of the last 20 years or the best sides of their rivals over that period. That's surely where Utd aspire to be, not simply 4th by default because Spurs and Arsenal have had poorer seasons. Theres not a chance in hell that these players are being talked about as great in any genuinely great side which was ultimately the point I was making. They'd be reliable squad players but not players that should be pivotal to the success of Utd's season and the fact that they're being talked about like that shows how far away Utd are front the top.

Have to remember how young our players are. You are benchmarking players against people in their prime. Fred and Pogba are really our only elders and they are only 26 themselves.

Rashford is only 22 and was easily on course for 20 goals in the prem this season before his injury.

Mason Greenwood has been forced in really and he has scored 10 in all comps. 18 year old kid, McTominay has only just turned 23 and this was really his breakout season. Brandon Williams is only 19. Etc.

The main problem is these youngsters have had no backbone or seniority to really look up to so have been chucked in the deep end a bit. I can see the potential of these kids and you have a potential for building a solid spine of a team for the future. A few tweaks in the summer transfers with correct targets and I think we can have a decent crack next season.

What ever people think of Ole he has done the right thing in stripping the team back to bare bones and instilling a new culture at the club. Whether he is the right man to take it further is up to debate.

 

[BaZ87]

Have to remember how young our players are. You are benchmarking players against people in their prime. Fred and Pogba are really our only elders and they are only 26 themselves.

Rashford is only 22 and was easily on course for 20 goals in the prem this season before his injury.

Mason Greenwood has been forced in really and he has scored 10 in all comps. 18 year old kid, McTominay has only just turned 23 and this was really his breakout season. Brandon Williams is only 19. Etc.

The main problem is these youngsters have had no backbone or seniority to really look up to so have been chucked in the deep end a bit. I can see the potential of these kids and you have a potential for building a solid spine of a team for the future. A few tweaks in the summer transfers with correct targets and I think we can have a decent crack next season.

What ever people think of Ole he has done the right thing in stripping the team back to bare bones and instilling a new culture at the club. Whether he is the right man to take it further is up to debate.

I'm not too sure how any of this is relevant to the original point that I made Adam. I commented on Greenwood and Williams separately because they are still very young and only time will tell whether they'll be first team players for Utd in years to come or whether they end up playing for Bournemouth. I didn't even say McTominay wasn't good enough to be part of Utd's squad. The point I made, which Shami took exception to and lead to this, was that Pogba and McTominay shouldn't be pivotal to the success of Utd's season. Utd have known for ages that Pogba doesn't want to be at the club and shouldn't have left themselves so reliant on him, and even if you believe that McTominay is good enough to play regularly for a side competing at the top of the table (I don't), nobody can honestly say he's of the level that you could justifiably argue that his absense is a legitimate reason for the sides performances to drop. Top sides shouldn't be overly reliant on any one player but if they are then it's your Gerrard's, Keane's, Vieira's etc, not your McTominay's.

Again, for complete clarity, the point I was making is that Utd success shouldn't rest on players that don't want to be at the club or aren't of the absolute highest quality. The fact that Utd fans are pointing to their absense's shows you just how far away Utd are from being where they want to be.

 

[adam cool dude]

Jordan Henderson is a prime example. What has he shown in his career that he is a player of top quality yet is considered a Liverpool legend? Up until a couple of seasons ago he has been a running joke but he has the heart and commitment to the club he plays for which is how I see McTominay as a player. You need players like that in your team who give 8/9 out of ten every game but are nothing special in the grand scheme of things but they promote the work ethic and commitment around them which influences the others.

 

[Shamikebab]

Nah, Baz thinks Henderson is as good as Carrick.

 

[BaZ87]

Jordan Henderson is a prime example. What has he shown in his career that he is a player of top quality yet is considered a Liverpool legend. Up until a couple of seasons ago he has been a running joke but he has the heart and commitment to the club he players for which is how I see McTominay as a player.

He's not somebody that is pivotal to the success of our season. He is a much better player than McTominay though.

Nah, Baz thinks Henderson is as good as Carrick.

He is now favourite to be named PFA Player of the year, something Carrick never got close to. And instead of making snide remarks why not post something substantive? Try to convince everybody that Utd successfully replaced Lukaku and Sanchez, how Pogba, Martial, Shaw, Fred and Lindelof are amazing.

It's plain bizarre why Utd were scrambling around signing Igahlo on loan after one attacking injury and you're currently below Sheffield Utd.

 

[adam cool dude]

Nah, Baz thinks Henderson is as good as Carrick.

Haha.

 

[Shamikebab]

snide remark? I'm literally reposting what you said Not sure why you're on such a weird rant lately.

 

[doodah]

Who on Earth is Odion Ighalo ? Only just clocked.

 

[BaZ87]

snide remark? I'm literally reposting what you said Not sure why you're on such a weird rant lately.

Where's the rant? All of my posts have been contructive. I've not thrown out petty comments like you have. I didn't say you were talking nonsense when you said McTominay was good enough to start for a top club as you did when I said he'd be nothing more than a squad player. I'm sure if we polled 1000 neutral supporters the vast majority would say it was you talking nonsense.

You don't think Henderson is as good as Carrick was, that's your opinion. As I said, he's currently favourite to be named player of the year, with a campaign being lead by lots of non Liverpool supporters. He can't be too bad.

Ultimately you don't like what I'm saying because it highlights the fact that this Utd side is pretty crap. Now I made a point of not naming you directly when I wrote the list of over hype Utd's squad have been getting but lets be honest, you are the biggest backer of these players (in less than 5 minutes searching I'm sure I could find you praising pretty much every player I listed, some of them you've backed to the hilt) and have weirdly been claiming that Utd successfully replaced Lukaku and Sanchez in the summer so please explain why you were scrambling about signing Ighalo on loan after 1 attacking injury and why Utd are currently competing with Wolves and Sheffield Utd to qualify for the CL. Or maybe these players aren't so good and Utd did leave themselves short?

 

[Shamikebab]

Yeah you're right Baz, every week I'm on here talking about how world class United are. You don't seem to understand the difference between praising a player for a good play and thinking they are world class, there is a void between those two comments.

Similarly for someone who apparently watches our every game you seem to have no idea about our squad depth. The fact that we've lost our top scorer for most of the season would lead to us looking for a short term loan to come in is...for some reason a completely alien concept to you. These are the weird rants I'm talking about. We left ourselves short, I've said so multiple times over the season (which you have contradicted multiple times) but the mistake was not replacing Herrera. Sanchez hasn't been missed at all, if you think he has then clearly you never watched him for us. Lukaku hasn't really been missed either, he was poor last season and didn't fit our style of play at all. We miss Fellaini more than we miss either of those two. Lukaku didn't want to be here and we didn't want him here. Greenwood is a far better finisher and fits our style of play far better. If we don't overplay him he can develop into a top striker.

No idea why you seem to be on this campaign to bad mouth me lately.

 

[BaZ87]

Yeah you're right Baz, every week I'm on here talking about how world class United are. You don't seem to understand the difference between praising a player for a good play and thinking they are world class, there is a void between those two comments.

Similarly for someone who apparently watches our every game you seem to have no idea about our squad depth. The fact that we've lost our top scorer for most of the season would lead to us looking for a short term loan to come in is...for some reason a completely alien concept to you. These are the weird rants I'm talking about. We left ourselves short, I've said so multiple times over the season (which you have contradicted multiple times) but the mistake was not replacing Herrera. Sanchez hasn't been missed at all, if you think he has then clearly you never watched him for us. Lukaku hasn't really been missed either, he was poor last season and didn't fit our style of play at all. We miss Fellaini more than we miss either of those two. Lukaku didn't want to be here and we didn't want him here. Greenwood is a far better finisher and fits our style of play far better. If we don't overplay him he can develop into a top striker.

No idea why you seem to be on this campaign to bad mouth me lately.

No, you're not talking about Utd being world class every week but I don't recall you ever acknowledging that the bulk of your squad just isn't good enough based on the standards that Utd aspire to reach. You have been incredibly defensive and supoprtive of a whole host of players though, whether that be Fred & McTominay, Lindelof, Shaw, Pogba, Martial and iinm, AWB and Maguire too. Throw in Rashford who most accept is good enough and the couple of youngsters and that's pretty much an entire side and a few subs. If none of these players that you've often defended needed replacing then Utd wouldn't be where they are today. You're absolutely right though, there is a void between a player playing well and them being world class, which is why I have no idea why you took exception to me commenting on Utd being so reliant on McTominay. He's not world class and a club like Utd shouldn't be relying on him. The fact that you said he was pivotal to the success of the side is telling.

And one injury shouldn't be enough to force a side like Utd into madly scrambling about looking for any striker they can get their hands on, if they weren't already short to begin with. That's not a weird rant. Teams don't or at least shouldn't be left sweating on the fitness of a single player like Utd clearly were with Rashford. It's crystal clear that Utd left themselves short in attack last summer.

As for bad mouthing you, I'm sorry but that is nonsense and hypocritical. As I said, I consciously didn't name you in my earlier post because I didn't want it to be seen as an attack on you. I've replied to a lot of your posts and disagreed because I disagree with them. This is a forum, people will have different views to you and if you're going to post you have to accept that people can and will disagree. I've never been rude or disrespectful in anything I've said to you though.

 

[Shamikebab]

WE ARE ALREADY SHORT. How many times do we need to state that for you to understand it? MULTIPLE people have talked this season about how small our squad is. What the hell is wrong with you? You literally just quoted a post where I said we left ourselves short!!!

Teams shouldn't be left sweating on the fitness of a single player? No **** Sherlock. It's almost like the management at the club has been under question, did you miss the protests against the club ownership? The whole fanbase has been clamouring for a DoF for YEARS. You cannot be this unaware if you watch every game, you must be on the windup.

As for bad mouthing me, you clearly are. You've stated I've claimed multiple things without a single shred of evidence.

 

[BaZ87]

edit: Forget it. Your post is nothing but hypocritical nonsense, changing arguments and questioning things I've never even commented on

As I said earlier, you don't like what I said because it highlights how poor this Utd side is. That's the top and bottom of it. You've made stupid posts defending the sale of Lukaku and arguing against anybody that questions whether this Utd squad is good enough and are now twisting and turning, moving the goal posts in an attempt to counter those points.

 

[Shamikebab]

Incorrect. That was on the basis of Rashford being used as a striker this season, instead Ole moved him back out to left wing. If our only problem was up front then we'd be fine with just Martial and Greenwood. The problem is Greenwood has had to play right wing too because we have nobody there. We're no lighter this season up front than we were last year

There was nothing wrong with selling Lukaku, he never fit us. There were problems leaving us short in midfield and still having no recognised right winger. James has kind of filled in there but he's better on the left. We need wingers far more than we need another striker. I'd much rather we got a winger than signed Ighalo. It's been a problem position for at least 6 years.

 

[BaZ87]

Ok Shami, I don't agree. As per my edit, your post above is hypocritical nonsense. Me questioning your claim that Utd replaced Lukaku is not countered by saying "oh but we didn't replace Herrera" and the random stuff about protesting vs the owners. Herrera's sale doesn't change the fact that you were still short up front and if supporters are protesting against the owners and calling for a Dof because you were left sweating on Rashford's injury then you obviously weren't sufficiently covered in attack, which you've argued against when I've said it.

We're just going to go round in circles. Nothing I've said is or was meant as an attack on you. I disagree with your views and fwiw, my initial post that started this wasn't even a disagreement with you. I was just following on from your post about McTominay being pivotal to your side, pointing out that Utd relying on a player of his quality shows you how far they've fallen.

 

[Shamikebab]

If I'd made that post you did you probably would have given me a suspension, or is it fine to call people's posts stupid and hypocritical now?

As I said you still haven't posted any evidence to backup these claims you're making about me. Just continually bad mouthing me for no reason.

 

[BaZ87]

If I'd made that post you did you probably would have given me a suspension, or is it fine to call people's posts stupid and hypocritical now?

As I said you still haven't posted any evidence to backup these claims you're making about me. Just continually bad mouthing me for no reason.

I absolutely would not have done. If you believe somebody is being hypocritical then you can say so and if you believe somebody had said something ie stupid you can point that out too.

Repeating that I'm bad mouthing you all while you were the one throwing out petty, unconstructive posts is hypocritical. And I'm not sure what claims about you, you want me to back up? The stuff about Lukaku or the defence of half the Utd squad?

 

[Shamikebab]

I've already explained the Lukaku comments (which you then ignored and claimed I was changing the goalposts)

So we can add petty and unconstructive, to stupid and hypocritical to the the list of things you've claimed about me, sure you're not bad mouthing me at all.

For some reason you're acting like everyone is claiming this United side is great and you're the only one that is pointing out otherwise. I have absolutely no idea why, we've been saying it all season. I don't state it every weekend because frankly I don't post that much in here any more because most of the good users left and it's not as great a place to discuss things as it was. Sadly this is just proving it.