Sony a7r2 thread

[D.P.]

DF. Perhaps it has a cult following. If it does it's a small one. Last I heard retailers were disappointed with it's sales compared to D800's etc.

It is a niche camera so of course sales are going to be lower than a general purpsoe prosumer model like D800. Nikon were happy with sales, they had stock problem for some time because demand was higher expected.

Well their business is nosediving. Their stock value has cratered. They are restructuring in an effort to turn things around.

Their business is nose diving like many business, but less so than Sony for example! Their 2 business areas (imaging and stepper-motors) have suffered large scale global decline, what do you expect will happen? None of the camera manufacturers are having a good time. Nikon is much healthier than Pentax, Panasonic, Olympus, Fuji and Sony imaging divisions!

Their strategy was flawed. You can't increase pricing without decreasing demand. To jack up demand again, you need to increase the desirability of your product. i.e. make it BETTER. As a company you actually have to get off your backside and innovate something that adds value. I can't believe my D810 still has the same AF system as the D300? Seriously Nikon.. update the damn thing already.. at minimum make them all cross-type!

Demand is decreasing irrespective of of whatever they do, that is why pricing is increasing. They could make the most ground breaking camera in the world, but there is less demand for cameras now because ever home on the west has capable camera. Nikon isn't just charging more money, unlike Sony, they want you to upgrade the camera. Instead of buying a $800 D7100 then want you to buy a $2100 D6750. You get a better camera with a better sensor for your money and Nikon can make more profit.

Compare that with what Sony has done with the A7r2. Very similar camera to the A7r but costs $1000 more. Where is the value in that?

As for the AF system in the D810, go and compare it to the D300. They are very, very different. Just because they both have 51 AF points is meaningless. Go compare side by side the ability to focus at f/8, low light focusing accuracy, continuous tracking, precision with fast glass, 3D AF, Group AF. maybe Nikon's problem is they aren't marketing the advancements to people like you sufficiently?

Where are you getting this from? The graphs I've seen show DSLR shipments decreasing year on year at an alarming rate, while mirrorless has remained almost flat.

The latest CIPA figures, comparing Q1 2015 to Q1 2014. Mirrorless has dropped to 91.6% while DSLRs have dropped to 93.4% so mirrorless sales are declining faster than DSLRs.

Nikon is declining much faster than Canon for example. Clearly their products are not very successful right now.
http://petapixel.com/2014/05/18/nikons-financial-woes-relentless-prompt-restructuring/

Yep, and a large part of that is due to Nikon's precision equipment branch suffering a massive decline in global demand. Nikon are suffering in their imaging group as well but so is every single camera manufacturer. Nikon is actually doing relatively well. although its camera sales are declining they are declining less than many of the competitors. in 2012 Nikon had 29% of the ILC market share, they now have 35%. In 2012 Sony had 12%, they now have 11%.

Yes right now, but Sony's camera sales are growing, not shrinking like Nikon and Canon's.
Sony as a whole is still fragile, but it's been innovating like crazy. Apparently they should be back to profit soon.
http://www.cnet.com/news/sony-says-good-times-ahead-as-it-forecasts-profit-for-next-year/

No, Sony's camera sales are declining rapidly. That predicted future profit is for the company as whole not their imaging division, which is a very small part of Sony.

Do you want to compare companies as whole or just their imaging divisions? Whether Sony turns around their fortunes is a very different topic to their camera sales. Sony is not gaining ILC market share.

"Mirrorless sales in the USA are rising, with sales values up 16.5% over the past year, says market researcher NPD Group. Sony highlighted the figures while celebrating its own success: with the success of the a7 series helping it generate 66% more revenue from mirrorless sales over the last twelve months."

"DSLR sales values fell 15% over the same period."

That is specific for Sony within the US. Sony have seen increased mirrorless sales and decreased DSLR sales. that is hardly surprising since they have basically given up on gaining DSLR growth.

More telling is the mirrorless sales in japan, where mirrorless sales are strongest, has dropeed to 78% of last years shipments.

"Looking at trade body CIPA's most recent shipment data to the Americas (CIPA's grouping that also includes South America and Canada), tells a similar story. Shipments of DSLRs in the twelve months to April 2015 fell 19% by volume and 9% by value, compared to the previous year, while mirrorless grew 36% by volume and 50% by value, over the same period.

This leaves shipments of mirrorless cameras making up 16% of ILC shipments by volume: still some way behind the 26% figure they represent in the rest of the world over the same period. This suggests there's still room for growth, unlike Europe, where volumes have contracted slightly (amidst sharply dropping DSLR figures)."

That's pretty impressive. Imagine what something with the spec's of the a7rii would do?
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6223902518/sony-rides-wave-of-us-mirrorless-sales-surge

Again, this is Sony and America specific. Globally, mirrorless sales have fallen more than DSLRs.

Edit:
"Shipments of DSLRs in the twelve months to April 2015 fell 19% by volume and 9% by value, compared to the previous year, while mirrorless grew 36% by volume and 50% by value, over the same period."
If this isn't indicative of a changing tide, I don't know what else to say.

I don't know where you get your numbers from. You an get the official CIPA figures here: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201504_e.pdf



Absolutely no sign of mirrorless having run-away sales:
http://nikonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/CIPA-DSLR-vs-mirrorless-camera-shipments.jpg

Edit: You also have to factor in that Nikon does indeed sale a fair amount of mirrorless cameras. The shops I go into I see plenty of Canon and Nikon DSLr, piles of Nikon 1 and a few sony NEX, but not FE. Fujifilm, Olympus, Panasonic, Pentax are no where to be seen. This is at department stores,Best buy, costco, airport electronics shops etc.

 

[D.P.]

I think with recent DSLRs they've got to the point where they perform very well and people keep them for longer than thay may have done in the past. The innovation curve has levelled off in recent times and perhaps people are happy to keep what they've got?

In my case i have a 2 year old D7100. It performs incredibly well. I have no need to upgrade it any time soon. The D7200 which has replaced it is not worth the upgrade and for me the only Nikon body i'd consider upgrading to would be a FF and probably the D750, but i'd be shelling out £1000 for (apparently) 10% better image quality, a bit better low light performance and better results at high IS0. For me and what i do, it's simply not worth it for the cost involved.

Until proper leaps in design and the tech are made i think in general, DSLR owners who want to stick with the format, will keep what they've got for longer, especially as even the entry level Nikon cameras with their 24MP sensors can produce amazing results.

And this is exactly the problem. Cameras are so good now there just isn't a big reason to upgrade, and pretty much every household has a good camera, so no one needs to buy a new camera.

DSLR technology is improving as fast as it ever did wityh a few exceptions. The Thailand flood, Japan earthquake and tsunami and subsequent power failures, and then the global financial meltdown delayed things for a couple of years but we are on track again.

The thigns is when DSLr first camera out they were way too expensive for most people. As technology improved they became cheaper and then affordable for home buyers. At that point the sensors had relatively low resolution and poor high ISO performance. Subsequent iterations has given us sensors that can print up to a giant poster and shoot in candle light. Auto focus has gone from 3 focus points with poor tracking and low light ability to 50 or more points that work near flawlessly in complex 3D tracking situations.

There is not much more to do from an imaging perspective that would be enticing. Sensors will continue to improve at the same rate but there is far less need to upgrade now everyone has 24-36MP sensors that shoot fine at ISO 6400.

Removing the mirror want do anything for sales. Why would I pay a load of money for an A7R2 that has worse AF performance, an EVF, highly limited to non-existent lens selection and lower IQ due to Sony's lossy RAW format?
Nah, i will stick to my D800 and buy a Nikon 300mm PF which will radically change the way I can go about capturing wildlife.


The real innovations would be something like interchangeable sensors, much better communication capability (why do we still have to put CF cards into a PC and go through convoluted import processes?), fluent interoperability with smartphones and tablets, the ability to run custom apps and software on the camera to achieve different things.

there is a lot of potential in sensor still. near-field IR photodiodes to cut through haze, logarithmic amplifiers giving 20 Stop DR.

 

[D.P.]

^^^
I agree, there isn't much need to upgrade considering there hasn't been any leaps in technological advancements. Especially if your are not a professional who's competing with other pro's in particularly varied and demanding environments.

I am seeing those leaps coming from Sony though.
5 axis stabilisation. I can't imagine being able to shoot fast F1.4 primes that are stabilised.

Still doesn't help you when the subject is moving and I find it impacts IQ noticeable on my Olympus. Nice to have the option but not a game changer.

Wide coverage of on sensor PDAF points (hopefully they sensitive in low light and perform).

Wide coverage would be nice but there are limits here due to the physic of lens design. PDAF sensors work best when the light is perpendicular to the sensor, as you go away from the center AF get less accurate. This is true for all PDAF systems, removing the mirror doesn't magically make this easier.

Backside illuminated sensor should easily give a stop better ISO.

It will barely make a visible difference actually, maybe 1/3rd of a stop if you are lucky. BSI only has a big impact on very high pixel density sensors, e.g. smartphones and compacts. You can compare the performances between the 1" Sony RX100 cameras, the later models have BSI. The difference will be much smaller going to FF as the pixel density is far smaller. Moreover, as sensors get fabbed on smaller and smaller process nodes the advantages of BSI diminishes quickly.

I'm much more interested in the stacked sensor technology. this could actually increase the high ISo performance.

SILENT shutter option would be a HUGE deal to me.

FYI, the Nikon 1 cameras have an electronic silent shutter. guess what nikon can do with their future FF mirrorless.

Personally I'm thinking of selling up, and going with 2x A7rii's. I can get a wide angle, a Zeiss 35mm F1.4 and a 85mm F1.8 and I'm good to go. Just need to wait and see if the camera performs. It can have all the spec's in the world.. but if it takes me twice as long to change my focus point.. it's a no go for me.

you are lucky you can get the lenses you want. Sony FE is an instant no until they have some telephoto options.

 

[D.P.]

And for balance, I agree that Nikon absolute has to start innovating or they will continue to loose sales and might start loosing market share in the future. Both Canon and Nikon will need to move to a full mirrorless line-up and I believe they both will when the technology is up to speed. Nikon have basically officially said they are working on higher end mirrorless cameras, including a FF mirrorless.

My point is so far they have had no need, which is why the EVIl cameras aren't there. Nikon market share is holding up fine, they aren't loosing sales to Sony or others in any volume that they are particularly worried about, which is why their market share against Sony is so healthy.

A destructive technology certainly could increase sales, but throwing out a mirror is not destructive paradigm shift unlike auto focus and digital sensors, but an evolution just like automatic film advancement was a nice feature but wasn't destructive.

There is also no guarantee that innovation pays off. Look at lytro, one of the most interesting and potentially game changing innovations in decades but the company is basically bust. Canon and nikon may not be innovating much right now but they don't need to, they have camera sales and market share the others cold only dream of,.Canon aside.

 

[An Exception]

you are lucky you can get the lenses you want. Sony FE is an instant no until they have some telephoto options.

No options?
If you had a a7rii you would just get an adaptor and a Sigma, and have native PDAF. Sony could quite feasibly also program their camera's to natively focus (using PDAF) Canon and Nikon lenses.

 

[D.P.]

No options?
If you had a a7rii you would just get an adaptor and a Sigma, and have native PDAF. Sony could quite feasibly also program their camera's to natively focus (using PDAF) Canon and Nikon lenses.

And you trust the performance via an adapter?

And unless Sony has made big improvements in terms of their AF a Nikon DSLR is still going to be much more preferable.

And no,m Sigma doesn't cut it at all, let alone the fact that Sigma aren't even releasing all their new lenses for sony FE mount.

 

[An Exception]

And you trust the performance via an adapter?

And unless Sony has made big improvements in terms of their AF a Nikon DSLR is still going to be much more preferable.

And no,m Sigma doesn't cut it at all, let alone the fact that Sigma aren't even releasing all their new lenses for sony FE mount.

You would get a Sigma A mount. A basic adaptor will focus an A-mount lens natively with the A7rii. The adaptor itself does nothing but pass on the signal instead of that SLT rubbish. So yes, such an adaptor should be like using a native mount lens. Also once mature, on sensor PDAF should be inherently more accurate than using a mirror and separate sensor.

Edit:
From dpreview:
By Rishi Sanyal
“Agreed. PDAF works with Canon lenses via Metabones adapter, and A-mount lenses via the LA-E3. We’re checking to see if you actually get the full AF coverage with subject tracking, but for now, consider our minds blown. ”
By Barney Britton
“It works, and it works very well. And yes, I just saw it demonstrated.”

 

[Raymond Lin]

Back on topic...I might pick one up and see how it goes, it can be a back up camera if anything else (if the AF isn't as good). Would be a nice gradual step moving to mirrorless if indeed that's where the industry is going.

 

[An Exception]

Having looked at the a7ii. I really think AF point selection is still it's achilles heal. Either the d-pad needs to be better designed, or there needs to be a dedicated joystick for AF point selection. The joystick itself could be tiny, something a similar size to the little sticks on thinkpad keybaords.

 

[englishpremier]

I never understood that on mirrorless camera with PDAF, why can't you just select an AF point like on a DSLR?

Instead you've got press C1 (of whatever custom button you've set) then move a square box around.

That was my biggest WTF moment when I bought the A7. Now I just use wide AF and it seems to get what I want 95% of the time. Especially with face detect and eye AF

Though saying that when DSLRs had maybe 15 points it's nice and simple, how do you quickly go about selecting point 257 from the 399 on the A7rII? The best you'd be able to do would be to select a rough area. It would take forever to navigate through that many points.

 

[An Exception]

^^^
Well ever since I bought a D7000, then D700, then D800E, then D810, you simply disable all the excess AF points so you are left with 11 at compositionally significant locations. Then swapping between them is a breeze.

 

[englishpremier]

That makes sense.

Sony just need a single button method of nothing the square around rather than having to press a button activate it first.

 

[CGrieves]

I never understood that on mirrorless camera with PDAF, why can't you just select an AF point like on a DSLR?

This, this and this, to the power of 1000.

I love my Fuji X-E2, but cannot understand how the design team decided that I'd be far more likely to want to select Macro mode in a hurry with the (otherwise perfectly placed) four-way controls than change the focus point.

Apart from the fact that I've never been faced with a "surprise" macro shot opportunity, all it does is limit the focus range!

That and the inability to have playback occur on the LCD by default. Everything else is magic, so quite how they got these things so wrong is flabbergasting! I'm convinced the engineers are sitting there giggling at our frustration.....

For me, this is a key area where Mirrorless lags behind. Without the decades of professionals using the hardware and driving refinements, some stuff isn't tuned for practical real-world use. Or maybe it's a deliberate marketing ploy to keep the Pros away, I don't know.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Its out now lads.

Some great raw files being posted and good impressions so far. go grab it!

 

[Raymond Lin]

It's a bit much...I think I'll wait 6 months, the A7 series prices tend to nose dive rather sharply due to Sony keep replacing it.

I will get it though, will be great addition to my kit.

 

[jonneymendoza]

It's a bit much...I think I'll wait 6 months, the A7 series prices tend to nose dive rather sharply due to Sony keep replacing it.

I will get it though, will be great addition to my kit.

ye me and u have similar setup ie 5d3 and a bunch of l lenses.

an a7r2 would suit u perfectly for travel photography/backup camera

 

[englishpremier]

Looking forward to the real world reviews.

Sony seem to be getting better at updating their firmware now too. They gave the A6000 XAVC which is nice little upgrade for A6000 users. Shame they didn't bring it to the original A7.

 

[Blackbadger]

I can't get passed that they still don't have real raw files.

It seems that the so called 'raw' files are still the same as previous versions of the a7 range. Images appear to fall apart adjusting past 2 EV in post. Surely it would be easier for them to actually just save the raw data without forcing you to have every shot post processed in camera, it renders the camera useless for any of my work.

It would be a understandable situation for a £300 entry level camera, however at around £4000 including a piece of glass it makes no sense to me.

Although I appreciate everyone needs different things from a camera, to me it does not offer anything better than what already exists.

Overall a nice bit of kit, however I can't take it seriously. Maybe the next one will actually be a real contender.

Spoiler

I'm still tempted

 

[Rojin]

This, this and this, to the power of 1000.

I love my Fuji X-E2, but cannot understand how the design team decided that I'd be far more likely to want to select Macro mode in a hurry with the (otherwise perfectly placed) four-way controls than change the focus point.

Apart from the fact that I've never been faced with a "surprise" macro shot opportunity, all it does is limit the focus range!

That and the inability to have playback occur on the LCD by default. Everything else is magic, so quite how they got these things so wrong is flabbergasting! I'm convinced the engineers are sitting there giggling at our frustration.....

For me, this is a key area where Mirrorless lags behind. Without the decades of professionals using the hardware and driving refinements, some stuff isn't tuned for practical real-world use. Or maybe it's a deliberate marketing ploy to keep the Pros away, I don't know.

Can't you re-assign those buttons on the X-E2? First thing I did on the X-T1!

 

[Raymond Lin]

The AF points on a DSLR or even old SLR is not on the sensor but actually done on the focus screen in the mirror box at the top,