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Oh man /salivates
Sourdough and starters
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Oh man /salivates
Thank you, we will get you sorted and fast.
That loaf was 50% White flour (Marriages premium bread flour) and 50% Wholemeal (Tesco) 75% hydration, 2.4% salt, mixed by hand with 3 sets of stretch and fold, short bulk ferment at room temp, pre shape and rest, shaped and popped in a bannetton in the fridge over night then baked.
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Hi @vcl_X1 well it more than doubled in size - had done so by bedtime yesterday and kept it up today. Ambient temperature is around 20-22 degrees I guess; have no thermometer to check.
Looking good, doubling is the key, you must have been pretty close already. You can feed it tomorrow, take 20 gr and feed with the same of water and fresh flour again and watch it for a day again, discard the small amount this leaves behind, it's too little to do anything useful with. I suspect you will be able to feed the next day to make dough with depending on your schedule.
This is quite a specific feeding regime to get it going. The first feed to make bread with will be quite diffferent.
This is quite a specific feeding regime to get it going. The first feed to make bread with will be quite diffferent.
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Wednesday update: not as good. I think a 36 hour gap between feeds caused problems? I'd fed it Sunday evening but wanted to be feeding in the morning, so didn't feed until Tuesday morning.
The starter in the photos above was lovely: mild, yogurty smell. Made these with the discard which were very tasty: https://littlespoonfarm.com/sourdough-discard-crackers/
Tuesday am fed it. Cooler day. Almost doubled by early afternoon, then went down. This morning it's got a sharp acidic tang, few bubbles and on stirring is like yoghurt, rather than the stringy "dough" that I got from the starter in the photos. Am trying crackers again in the oven, will see if they are palatable...
The starter in the photos above was lovely: mild, yogurty smell. Made these with the discard which were very tasty: https://littlespoonfarm.com/sourdough-discard-crackers/
Tuesday am fed it. Cooler day. Almost doubled by early afternoon, then went down. This morning it's got a sharp acidic tang, few bubbles and on stirring is like yoghurt, rather than the stringy "dough" that I got from the starter in the photos. Am trying crackers again in the oven, will see if they are palatable...
ok, we're just trying to build up the yeast colony. How much starter do you have now then ~60 grams. Are you ready to make bread tonight/tomorrow if it's been fed and it's ready to go? If so take all the starter, add 100 gr each of water and flour and watch it, ideally it will peak at double (or better) after about 5-7 hours as it's a cooler day today if it takes longer then that's fine. As soon as it starts to drop back then make your dough, do you have a recipe to use? What do you have to proof it in? a Bannetton? I'll suggest a nice little 700 gr loaf to start and 65% hydration as that's easy to handle, don't jump right in at high hydration unless you already make lots of bread and can handle wetter doughs with confidence. 350 gr flour, 200 gr starter, 190 gr water and 11 gr salt. Water first into the bowl, add the starter and mix to distributed/break up the starter, add flour with salt last the mix just enough to bring it together. This will leave you with ~ 60gr starter left to continue the process with, the dough has a high proportion of starter too, this can reduce as the starter establishes itself and stabilises.
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I am tomorrow. It's got a good, healthy doubling today.
Great, will do so when I get up
No I don't have a recipe, and I don't have a Bannetton either. For bakers-yeast bread I've proofed it in a metal mixing bowl. I have a lidded pyrex casserole dish if that will work? Also have silicone loaf tins.
Those amounts sound good. Does this need kneeding, and how long to I leave it before baking?
Ok, give it a feed first thing as we've done so far and at some point in between it hitting double and starting to fall back you make the dough as I suggest.
No kneading required, just bring the dough together and cover it and leave for 30 minutes, Now you stretch and fold, wet both hands thoroughly and loosen the edges gently. Pick a good piece of dough and stretch it up to the top of the bowl, give it a gentle little wiggle then fold over the other side and gently press in to the dough to try to get it to stick down. move 90 degrees or so and repeat, you will notice after 3 stretches it's tighter, this is ok. After 4 stretches cover and leave for 30 minutes. Stretch and fold 4-6 times, you will notice the dough has changed and it more stretchy already so you might get to 6 folds, no more. Cover for 30 minutes and this time you really will see a change in the dough, it's much more workable, time and water have done the work for you. After 3 stretch and folds mine will easily pass a window pane test. I hold the entire dough and thretch from the centre, holding its while weight and stretch it out gently, turning like you're driving instructor taught you to steer, pass the dough through your grip and stretch a little each time, if it rips then bring it together again, pop back in the bowl, rest for another 30 minues, stretch and fold then try again. Once it will allow you to stretch it and almost see light through it form it into a ball, cover and let it ferment for 3-5 hours, how ever long you have till 40 minutes before bedtime.
Gently tip dough out onto surface with no flour and dry, fold each side in over the top and to the other side, turn over and form into a ball, leave to rest for 30 minutes, this is pre shaping.
After 30 minutes you shape the dough. dust the top with some flour, not a huge amount but don't be mean, flip it over and this is where you gently pull the sides out to stretch it, gently, you want to ~ double the area it covers, now fold one side over to half way and do the same with the other. now roll one end and form a fat little sausage. dust with flour.
Bannetton substitute is a glass bowl double ish the size of the ball of dough plus a clean tea towel, pop the towel flat over the bowl and dust with plenty of flour then pop the ball of dough with the smoothest side down. cover and pop in the fridge over night.
You can decide to bake first thing or later in the day, say about Noon.
preheat oven (I go to 240 or 250) and once up to temp add a tray with boiling water into the bottom of the oven to produce steam.
Take a baking tray and pop it over the bowl with dough and invert to release the dough, gently remove towel and use a sharp knife to gently but firmly slash a cross in the top.
Into over for 25 minutes, then drop temp to 200 for 15 more.
If all goes well you have a lovely loaf. if the shaping wasn't quite right and it flowed a bit you still have a nice edible loaf.
No kneading required, just bring the dough together and cover it and leave for 30 minutes, Now you stretch and fold, wet both hands thoroughly and loosen the edges gently. Pick a good piece of dough and stretch it up to the top of the bowl, give it a gentle little wiggle then fold over the other side and gently press in to the dough to try to get it to stick down. move 90 degrees or so and repeat, you will notice after 3 stretches it's tighter, this is ok. After 4 stretches cover and leave for 30 minutes. Stretch and fold 4-6 times, you will notice the dough has changed and it more stretchy already so you might get to 6 folds, no more. Cover for 30 minutes and this time you really will see a change in the dough, it's much more workable, time and water have done the work for you. After 3 stretch and folds mine will easily pass a window pane test. I hold the entire dough and thretch from the centre, holding its while weight and stretch it out gently, turning like you're driving instructor taught you to steer, pass the dough through your grip and stretch a little each time, if it rips then bring it together again, pop back in the bowl, rest for another 30 minues, stretch and fold then try again. Once it will allow you to stretch it and almost see light through it form it into a ball, cover and let it ferment for 3-5 hours, how ever long you have till 40 minutes before bedtime.
Gently tip dough out onto surface with no flour and dry, fold each side in over the top and to the other side, turn over and form into a ball, leave to rest for 30 minutes, this is pre shaping.
After 30 minutes you shape the dough. dust the top with some flour, not a huge amount but don't be mean, flip it over and this is where you gently pull the sides out to stretch it, gently, you want to ~ double the area it covers, now fold one side over to half way and do the same with the other. now roll one end and form a fat little sausage. dust with flour.
Bannetton substitute is a glass bowl double ish the size of the ball of dough plus a clean tea towel, pop the towel flat over the bowl and dust with plenty of flour then pop the ball of dough with the smoothest side down. cover and pop in the fridge over night.
You can decide to bake first thing or later in the day, say about Noon.
preheat oven (I go to 240 or 250) and once up to temp add a tray with boiling water into the bottom of the oven to produce steam.
Take a baking tray and pop it over the bowl with dough and invert to release the dough, gently remove towel and use a sharp knife to gently but firmly slash a cross in the top.
Into over for 25 minutes, then drop temp to 200 for 15 more.
If all goes well you have a lovely loaf. if the shaping wasn't quite right and it flowed a bit you still have a nice edible loaf.
Don't forget to save some starter before you add the salt. keep this and pop it in the fridge to feed a day before you intend to make dough next or if that's longer than a week (can be 3 weeks tbh) then feed and pop back in fridge.
Your lidded pyrex dish might just be perfect to bake in if it's big enough. preheat it in the oven and using the lid as the base turn the dough out on to it, slash it and pop the bottom on as a lid. don't bother with water in the tray. cook for 25 mins at 240-250 then take the top off and drop temp to 200 for 15 minutes.
If you don't want to risk shaping challenges yet then by all means prove over night in the bread tin you have, preheat to 250, slash the top and bake for 25 + 15 etc as I've mentioned. I bake sourdough in tins often enough, I have no time for the tribal Sourdough isn't sourdough if its done in a tin brigade.
Your lidded pyrex dish might just be perfect to bake in if it's big enough. preheat it in the oven and using the lid as the base turn the dough out on to it, slash it and pop the bottom on as a lid. don't bother with water in the tray. cook for 25 mins at 240-250 then take the top off and drop temp to 200 for 15 minutes.
If you don't want to risk shaping challenges yet then by all means prove over night in the bread tin you have, preheat to 250, slash the top and bake for 25 + 15 etc as I've mentioned. I bake sourdough in tins often enough, I have no time for the tribal Sourdough isn't sourdough if its done in a tin brigade.
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Thanks for the instructions!
Second fold and feeling good. Apart from the lumps of not-properly-mixed-in flour because I didn't mix it quite enough when combining ingredients. Slowly working them out.
Also found putting the sourdough starter on top of my computer is a great way to speed up its development.
Second fold and feeling good. Apart from the lumps of not-properly-mixed-in flour because I didn't mix it quite enough when combining ingredients. Slowly working them out.
Also found putting the sourdough starter on top of my computer is a great way to speed up its development.
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It worked! Thought it was a failure last night as I did the stretching, folding and rolling - how the heck was this going to stick back together and form into a loaf?
Turning it out this morning:
After baking
and inside
Texture is firm (like Bertinet sourdough tin loaves) and takes butter and honey well.
Taste is disappointing: there's a lack of sourdough 'tang'. Will that develop over time? I have the original starter that's sat on the worktop for a week not being fed; once I drain the hooch off and remove the grey layer, thinking to try it as this could be more tasty?
My missus has ordered me to keep up this new hobby!
Thank you, your instructions were fantastic.
Turning it out this morning:
After baking
and inside
Texture is firm (like Bertinet sourdough tin loaves) and takes butter and honey well.
Taste is disappointing: there's a lack of sourdough 'tang'. Will that develop over time? I have the original starter that's sat on the worktop for a week not being fed; once I drain the hooch off and remove the grey layer, thinking to try it as this could be more tasty?
My missus has ordered me to keep up this new hobby!
Thank you, your instructions were fantastic.
You are welcome. For low hydration there's great oven spring, the colour's good, the slashing worked well too and excuse the pun but cracking crust. The low hydration has contributed to the dense nature but it's not the only factor. The flavour does develop over time and with more fermentation time, it also turns more sour if you let the starter fall more but this then extends your dough rising time too, it's a matter of balancing so many factors. I wanted to keep it easy and the dough manageable for you at first, look at the recipe and counting the 200gr starter as 100 gr water and 100 gr flour you can see how we had 65% weight of water to flour, adjust this to 70% and maybe all the way to 80% slowly and steadily in say 5% increments, the dough gets more difficult to handle at first but the internal structure really opens up.
White flour takes less water than Wholemeal and better quality and fresher flours take more water too.
Only change one thing at a time if you can, sourdough breadmaking is a long term and occasionaly frustrating thing, welcome to the sourdough club and hey, happy wife happy life
White flour takes less water than Wholemeal and better quality and fresher flours take more water too.
Only change one thing at a time if you can, sourdough breadmaking is a long term and occasionaly frustrating thing, welcome to the sourdough club and hey, happy wife happy life
I've been doing the same sourdough recipe for the past few weeks and this weekend ran out of strong white bread flour and used some of the caputo 00 I use for pizza. Made for a really nice soft and slightly chewy texture inside and same good crust outside.
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How do I stop my sourdough starter doing mouldy in the fridge? It seems to last 5-6 days without going mouldy; I'm seeing references on the web for up to 2 weeks in the fridge between feeds for wheat starter.
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Are you sure it's mould? In the fridge you'll end up with hooch on top which can have a grey tint. Suggest posting a photo so someone experienced can comment on whether what you're seeing is normal.
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Definitely sure. Little fluffly islands of white mould floating on a sea of flour paste. No hooch layer, it's all been re-absorbed by day 4. If it happens again this week I'll post a photo.
I'm trying in a sealed container this week; perhaps that will keep better in the fridge than in a paper-towel-lidded one.
sounds like there was an excess of flour after feeding/discard, was it well mixed; but, eventually the yeast multiplied and overcame it
- just keep mine fridged, in a clinged basin, a paper towel sounds like there could be evaporation, and, potential contamination, from other things.
My starter was in fridge for couple of weeks may be bit longer. Didn't react to 2 feedings. My wife has now chucked it which I think was prob a bit premature. Will have to start again but think I may leave it until after summer holidays as will be away for almost 3 weeks.