Spanish Football 2011-2012

Ronaldo and Messi are winning multiple titles, CL titles, top scorers awards and POTY awards time and time again. They are averaging almost a goal a game.

My fav player ever is George Best, and in a "Best of all time" i would feel like i should pick him but on any given stat (more or less) Ronaldo wipes the floor with him at United.

Ronaldo and Messi are taking it to a new level.
 
Some of the greatest players of all time aren't remembered due to their stats, they're remembered for achievements and skill and ability.

I don't understand how you can judge either now, half way through their respective careers.

Neither are taking anything to a whole new level imho, and to claim they're doing so at such an early point in their career is daft.
 
Tummy said:
Some of the greatest players of all time aren't remembered due to their stats, they're remembered for achievements and skill and ability.

I don't understand how you can judge either now, half way through their respective careers.

Neither are taking anything to a whole new level imho, and to claim they're doing so at such an early point in their career is daft.
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Im not talking about stats. Look at what both players have won in their careers. Bloody hell.

In addition to medals won, you can add stats in.

Its not daft at all when both players have a medal haul that few players can command in addition to a scoring record that the greatest out and out strikers would be jealous of. The fact that they are both hardly in the mid-points of their career just emphasizes my point.

Ronaldo ripped up England winning everything there was to win and so far at Madrid he is on almost a goal a game yet he is only about 25ish.
 
Tummy said:
Some of the greatest players of all time aren't remembered due to their stats, they're remembered for achievements and skill and ability.

I don't understand how you can judge either now, half way through their respective careers.

Neither are taking anything to a whole new level imho, and to claim they're doing so at such an early point in their career is daft.
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So they have to get better to be a 'great'? Is that possible?

I can't see their performances dropping.
 
Andybtsn said:
So they have to get better to be a 'great'? Is that possible?

I can't see their performances dropping.
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People said that about Ronaldinho, wait until their respective careers are coming to an end.

I also, didn't say they needed to improve, just that they're not doing anything that hasn't been done before. Their level of performance is immense, but it has been reached before and maintained for careers.

Adrianr said:
Yay, another who's best discussion. Not had one of them for a few days :p
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Indeed.

It's daft to judge people mid way through their career.
 
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Nonsense.

If both players retired tonight they have achieved enough to be considered at the very top on their own merits. The fact that there is probably more to come only adds to their kudos and stature.
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Ronaldinho is a good point, touted as being one of the all time greats but yet tailed off after achieving everything (including a World Cup which neither Messi nor Ronaldo have managed) but would you still rank him as one of the all time greats?

It's daft to judge players midway through their career. Wait until they've either finished playing or are winding down their careers. That's not to say they're not amazing players at the minute.
 
Tummy said:
Ronaldinho is a good point, touted as being one of the all time greats but yet tailed off after achieving everything (including a World Cup which neither Messi nor Ronaldo have managed) but would you still rank him as one of the all time greats?

It's daft to judge players midway through their career. Wait until they've either finished playing or are winding down their careers. That's not to say they're not amazing players at the minute.
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If a career ended today with what Ronnie and Messi had achieved are you really saying it wouldnt stand up there with Pele and Maradona?

Ronaldinho is far from a good point.

The use of a World Cup as a benchmark is completely stupid, ridiculous and any other similar word you want to throw in there.

Stephane Guiavarc'h has a WC winners medal as a striker. So what? Does that make him comparable to Messi or Ronaldo even though both are in the mid point of their careers?!

I hope not.
 
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If a career ended today with what Ronnie and Messi had achieved are you really saying it wouldnt stand up there with Pele and Maradona?

Ronaldinho is far from a good point.

The use of a World Cup as a benchmark is completely stupid, ridiculous and any other similar word you want to throw in there.

Stephane Guiavarc'h has a WC winners medal as a striker. So what? Does that make him comparable to Messi or Ronaldo even though both are in the mid point of their careers?!

I hope not.
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Ronaldinho is a good point, he was touted as being one of the greatest players and yet his career tailed off in such a fashion.

I've not used the World Cup as a bench mark? :confused: It's something that both players are yet to win. Many players still talk about the World Cup as being the holy grail.

The whole argument about career ending now is stupid, if my auntie had a willy she'd be my uncle? So what?
 
Tummy said:
The whole argument about career ending now is stupid, if my auntie had a willy she'd be my uncle? So what?
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No it isnt because if either Messi or Ronaldo ended their careers right now they would still have more than most "great" players and should therefore be considered a "great" by anyones standards. Future years can only add to it not justify it.

Your Auntie is completely irrelevant.
 
A quick point on the Messi & Ronaldo greatness debate, one thing that often gets ignored when discussing their records over the last couple of years is the gulf in class between the sides they're playing in and the sides they're playing against.

Since the emergence of this Barca side and since Real's crazy spending spree, La Liga's become one of the least competitive leagues in Europe. Take Ronaldo and Messi out of Real and Barca's sides and they'd still run away with the league.
 
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No it isnt because if either Messi or Ronaldo ended their careers right now they would still have more than most "great" players and should therefore be considered a "great" by anyones standards. Future years can only add to it not justify it.

Your Auntie is completely irrelevant.
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If Ronaldinho's career ended at Barcelona he'd be one of the greatest players ever.

It's a silly argument, judge them properly at the end of their careers.

That's not to say they're not some how amazing players, I just feel the comparisons are daft at such point in their career.

The point Baz makes is a good point too, Barcelona and Real would still walk the League without either player.
 
BaZ87 said:
A quick point on the Messi & Ronaldo greatness debate, one thing that often gets ignored when discussing their records over the last couple of years is the gulf in class between the sides they're playing in and the sides they're playing against.

Since the emergence of this Barca side and since Real's crazy spending spree, La Liga's become one of the least competitive leagues in Europe. Take Ronaldo and Messi out of Real and Barca's sides and they'd still run away with the league.
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As luck would have it......

Check Ronaldos stats, cups, goals, awards and achievements while at United.

Im NOT saying Ronaldo is better than Messi. All im saying is look at what Ronnie has done in two different countries. To go from one league to another IS impressive.
 
He's gone from the best side in England to the second best side in Spain, which is a very large mile ahead of the opposition!
 
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