Spanish Grand Prix 2013, Barcelona - Race 5/19

[Reaper 392]

Why don't Mercedes just go all out at the expense of more pitstops? I can't see them being worse off at the moment by doing that.

they only have 6 sets of tyres for the race and qualifying so they just don't have enough sets of tyres to do that with the rate at which they wear out.

Realistically the minimum number of tyres you can use for quali is two, with the second set going on for your last lap of Q3 and the first set being good for not many more laps having, done Q1 and Q2. This means you will have four sets of fresh tyres for the race sitting in the pit garage at best. With the 4 stop race the majority of people were having all of those fresh tyres were used up, leaving the well used quali tyres, which wont be good for very many more racing laps before they fall apart.

I cant remember exactly what merc did with the tyres, but with the rate that the Mercs eat their tyres, particularly Hamilton's one with its bad setup, they couldnt afford to push any harder for fear of running out of tyres completely. If Hamilton had pushed much Harder he would have had to use that last very used set. If they had run out, which they would have done very quickly what would Merc had done then? Retire the car? Put Hamilton on inters? nothing that would have been any good thats for sure

 

[Skeeter]

I don't think (I may be wrong) that the Mercedes was slow because the tyres weren't working or weren't giving them grip. They were slow because that's the speed they told their drivers to go to try and make the tyres last enough to do 3 stops.

There were a number of radio messages about going slower or lifting in corners to keep temperatures down, with the drivers complaining they couldn't drive any slower.

What we saw wasn't the true race pace of the Mercedes, it was an artificially imposed pace on order to make a 3 stop strategy work. A number of other teams (all, pretty much, bar Ferrari) were doing the same, its just Mercedes showed it up the most by going from a front row lockout to 2 dismal finishing positions.

@Reaper - Yep. And its soft tyres they use in Qualifying. Nobody up the sharp end will start the race with a fresh set of softs. Most only had 1 set of fresh hards. Running 4 stops I expect Ferrari ran the limit of the tyres they had available. I know they said that Massa could make a 5th stop if needed, but it would have had to be very late in the race as I expect that final set were well worn.

I wonder if Mercedes/Hamilton/Rosberg would have the balls to go 1 run on hards in Q1, one on softs in Q2 and then sit out Q3 and start the race with 4 brand new sets of tyres plus 2 minimum use sets, and just gun it from 10th place? Its a big risk, but its better than working hard to get on pole and then dropping back outside the points.

 

[Cavallino]

Mate****z throwing his toys out of the pram over tyres:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107402

Red Bull boss Dietrich Mateschitz has launched a furious attack on the state of Formula 1, saying it is no longer about racing.

Funny that he wasnt complaining about the tyres in the races where RB won.

EDIT:
ROFL love the starring of his name

 

[Skeeter]

Wilst there is a lot of 'boo hoo, dry your eyes, just cos you lost' about that, he does have a valid point.

If F1 teams spend million of pounds making cars go as fast as possible, only then to have to drive them all Sunday afternoon at 8/10ths, is that racing?

Even Le Mans is basically a 24 hour sprint now.

Should F1 really be about getting the best drivers, putting them in the best cars built by the best people, and then making them all drive at well below their limit?

They should look at the compounds, no doubt, especially their tendency to fail, but the first port of call for the FIA should be to give the teams more dam tyres! 22 of the worlds best drivers lined up with 5 toasty new sets of rubber warming in the pitlane each, and 200 miles in which to destroy them while driving as fast as possible? Yes please!

 

[deuse]

Mate****z throwing his toys out of the pram over tyres:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107402



Funny that he wasnt complaining about the tyres in the races where RB won.

EDIT:
ROFL love the starring of his name

Well he is right. Yes they have always had tire management but not like this. It's getting boring now.

 

[Mr Men]

So when we heard Red Bull radio telling Seb he could burn up the rest of his tyres, ie no more looking after them, how much quicker did he actually go?

 

[Skeeter]

Well he is right. Yes they have always had tire management but not like this. It's getting boring now.

Its the different between tyre management and being tyre limited.

You could always go easy on your tyres and save a stop. But the problem is they are now being forced into going easy because if they don't they simply wouldn't have enough tyres to finish the race.

 

[dannyjo22]

If F1 teams spend million of pounds making cars go as fast as possible, only then to have to drive them all Sunday afternoon at 8/10ths, is that racing?

This isn't anything new, they have had to do this since pirelli entered. Remember the huge issue with marbles and drivers getting hit by lumps that came off the tyres. He didn't care then when his car was the best on them.

They have run at 8/10ths for years now, that's why no one makes a mistake and few drivers crash out. Unless half these new drivers with a lot less testing than they used to have are much better than before?

2 years ago Webber was saying they were no longer running at the performance of the car but the performance of the tyre. Literally nothing has changed but for some reason this year it's become an issue.

I don't get why.

 

[Cavallino]

This isn't anything new, they have had to do this since pirelli entered. Remember the huge issue with marbles and drivers getting hit by lumps that came off the tyres. He didn't care then when his car was the best on them.

They have run at 8/10ths for years now, that's why no one makes a mistake and few drivers crash out. Unless half these new drivers with a lot less testing than they used to have are much better than before?

2 years ago Webber was saying they were no longer running at the performance of the car but the performance of the tyre. Literally nothing has changed but for some reason this year it's become an issue.

I don't get why.

Mr. Men also highlighted that in the Spanish GP 2011 the top 4 stopped 4 times. Similar to yesterday (albeit actually yesterday some of the top 4 stopped 3 times).

I think the difference is that in 2011, the Pirellis were relatively new and people gave them a wider berth, assuming that they will get over their tyre problems in a season or so...

 

[Skeeter]

This isn't anything new, they have had to do this since pirelli entered. Remember the huge issue with marbles and drivers getting hit by lumps that came off the tyres. He didn't care then when his car was the best on them.

They have run at 8/10ths for years now, that's why no one makes a mistake and few drivers crash out. Unless half these new drivers with a lot less testing than they used to have are much better than before?

2 years ago Webber was saying they were no longer running at the performance of the car but the performance of the tyre. Literally nothing has changed but for some reason this year it's become an issue.

I don't get why.

The problem has existed ever since we had high wearing tyres in limited supply...

So is the root of the problem the rubber, or the rules?

 

[Jono8]

With these tyres and DRS, qualifying is also pretty pointless now.

 

[deuse]

So when we heard Red Bull radio telling Seb he could burn up the rest of his tyres, ie no more looking after them, how much quicker did he actually go?

Don't know about that but on lap 35-36(I think) a Murisa car kept up with vimto for 2 laps lmfao

The problem has existed ever since we had high wearing tyres in limited supply...

So is the root of the problem the rubber, or the rules?

We all know it's the rubber Pirelli was asked by the fia to make the tires softer they went to far and they know it.
And because of very bad quality control it's pot luck if your car can finish a race.

If it carries on like this even I will drop F1 and stick to MotoGp.

 

[Skeeter]

Not sure where the quality control issues thing has come from? Nobody has mentioned that at all. Its a bit pot luck as to how individual cars behave on the tyres at individual tracks, but nobody in an informed position has ever seriously suggested there are QC issues. Just that the tyres are unpredictable.

What I'm saying is that with the current tyre situation as a whole, bigger (and quicker, easier to implement) improvements can be made by changing the rules rather than changing the rubber.

Also, does that mean you will be buying BT Sport?

 

[deuse]

Also, does that mean you will be buying BT Sport?

The quality control thing was on the BBC from Friday. Yes I know all about BT and welcome to last week.

 

[dannyjo22]

The problem has existed ever since we had high wearing tyres in limited supply...

So is the root of the problem the rubber, or the rules?

The rules, the difference in time on compounds and the stupid two compound rule. That said I don't want them to change it until next year just to suit one team when everyone else said they were fine with how things are/were.

Typical of F1 teams at the front, they don't care about the show or the fans as long as they are winning. When they aren't they moan about it being a competiton in tyre management. Which it was in 2011 and 2012 with no complaints from Red Bull.

I expect princess vettel will now voice his feelings too now the master has had his say. Maybe he has more sway because they didn't listen to MS when he said the same thing 12 months ago.

 

[Skeeter]

The quality control thing was on the BBC from Friday. Yes I know all about BT and welcome to last week.

For the 'randomness', or for the 5 de-laminations?

 

[deuse]

The rules, the difference in time on compounds and the stupid two compound rule. That said I don't want them to change it until next year just to suit one team when everyone else said they were fine with how things are/were.

Pirelli have already said they are changing them again by Silverstone because there was to many pit stops not because of a team\teams

For the 'randomness', or for the 5 de-laminations?

Both but that's my opinion.

 

[dannyjo22]

Pirelli have already said they are changing them again by Silverstone because there was to many pit stops not because of a team\teams.

I know I'm talking about making larger changes to the tyres or rules, it shouldn't be done until next year. Car's have been built around these tyres and rules, tough **** if anyone is struggling.

12 months earlier the same concerns....

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/04/27/f1-fix-flawed-rules-pirelli-tyres/

 

[Skeeter]

There is definately a problem with the de-laminations, but I'm yet to see anyone claim there are QC issues in the compounds. If there were then we would see cars having massive swings in performance on the same tyre compound over a weekend, which we haven't seen. There have been differences between teams, but the tyre behaviour within teams has remained consistent over a weekend.

 

[Skeeter]

I know I'm talking about making larger changes to the tyres or rules, it shouldn't be done until next year. Car's have been built around these tyres and rules, tough **** if anyone is struggling.

Built around the tyres, yes, but not the rules. Unless you think any team has deliberately designed their cars to go their fastest when driven at 8/10ths?

Keep the rubber, give the teams more sets. No need to change the car designs, but drivers can push in a race rather than driving to set times. 4 stops a race isn't a problem if they are driving flat out.