Spanish Grand Prix 2014, Catalunya - Race 5/19

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Yep. It was. Mclaren threw it away.

In 2009 the Brawn was the dominant car. And in 2013 th first half of the season was pretty level (all be it random). 2010 was a 5 way fight almost to the end.

The only time the RBR has been absolutely dominant is 2011. The rest are a combination of a front running car, a driver who excelled with it, and a team that didn't make mistakes while their rivals did.

But you simply can't reason with a Vettel hater. Hence claims he has had the best car "EVERY SEASON"...

In 2012 it was pretty even between the Mclaren and the Red Bull, 2009 it went to the wire but the RB6 was miles ahead of it's competitors, 2013 again it won what was it 8-9 races in a row? so 3 years he had definitely had the best car and one year it was about even so he still had the best car for 3 seasons and a pretty even car with the Mclaren in 2012 it was still always a potential championship winning car in 2012.

The fact a mediocre Ferrari pushed him all the way to the last race says a lot more for Alonso than it does for Vettel with arguably the best car on the grid in 2012.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Yep. It was. Mclaren threw it away.

In 2009 the Brawn was the dominant car. And in 2013 th first half of the season was pretty level (all be it random). 2010 was a 5 way fight almost to the end.

The only time the RBR has been absolutely dominant is 2011. The rest are a combination of a front running car, a driver who excelled with it, and a team that didn't make mistakes while their rivals did.

But you simply can't reason with a Vettel hater. Hence claims he has had the best car "EVERY SEASON"...

He had the best car every season, you are using things like other cars being more competitive for HALF A SEASON as a reason that the Red bull wasn't the dominant car over the entire season. The thing is titles aren't decided on the half season RBR wasn't dominant, it was decided over the entire season in which over 20 races RBR was quite easily the best car. one of the top three cars for 10 races, and the top car for the next 9 races = best car overall.

The red bull was hands down the best car over each individual full season. That doesn't mean it was the best car every single race, one year it was MORE dominant to the degree that even at tracks that didn't really suit their car as much they were still ridiculously competitive.

I don't hate Vettel, I up to this season have said one thing, I DON'T KNOW if Vettel is good or bad. With a car on rails, with few problems, and few consistent competitors then he's won four titles but you can't really tell from his driving how good he was. Give anyone a car you can floor it through corners that others can't and you won't tell much.

This season was likely to always be rules that broke the "flat out through slow corners" year due to the style or rule changes. I had no idea if Vettel was a great driver or not before this season, based on this season not much supports him being a brilliant driver but anyone can have a bad spell of form. If he adapts and comes back strong, good for him, if he continues to be beaten by Riccy on pace and finishes(factoring in luck/bad calls/failures) then I think it supports that he isn't actually that good of a driver.

Don't put words in my mouth, I have never, ever said I hate him I've never hinted it, I've merely said I don't know how good he is.

 

[Skeeter]

Seems odd to gauge performance of a driver based solely on an averaged car performance over a year?

And dominant is not the same as best. RBR have done the best job for the last 4 years with one of the best cars throughout. But they only had a car dominant enough to carry an average driver to the title in 2011 and then the latter half of 2013, which, if you look back, was my original point. I.e. the claims Vettel is meh and it was all the car only account for 1.5 of the 5 years at RBR. The rest were close enough that anaverage driver in the RBR would have been beaten by his rivals... oh hi Webber.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

He had the best car every season, you are using things like other cars being more competitive for HALF A SEASON as a reason that the Red bull wasn't the dominant car over the entire season. The thing is titles aren't decided on the half season RBR wasn't dominant, it was decided over the entire season in which over 20 races RBR was quite easily the best car. one of the top three cars for 10 races, and the top car for the next 9 races = best car overall.

The red bull was hands down the best car over each individual full season. That doesn't mean it was the best car every single race, one year it was MORE dominant to the degree that even at tracks that didn't really suit their car as much they were still ridiculously competitive.

I don't hate Vettel, I up to this season have said one thing, I DON'T KNOW if Vettel is good or bad. With a car on rails, with few problems, and few consistent competitors then he's won four titles but you can't really tell from his driving how good he was. Give anyone a car you can floor it through corners that others can't and you won't tell much.

This season was likely to always be rules that broke the "flat out through slow corners" year due to the style or rule changes. I had no idea if Vettel was a great driver or not before this season, based on this season not much supports him being a brilliant driver but anyone can have a bad spell of form. If he adapts and comes back strong, good for him, if he continues to be beaten by Riccy on pace and finishes(factoring in luck/bad calls/failures) then I think it supports that he isn't actually that good of a driver.

Don't put words in my mouth, I have never, ever said I hate him I've never hinted it, I've merely said I don't know how good he is.

Nailed it DM!

 

[drunkenmaster]

Off the top of my head i can think of two incidents where Lewis screwed himself up by hitting Maldonado and massa.

Maldonado first turn Monaco. . Lewis trying to pull a ridiculous move and got hit.. no way Maldonado fault. Fact.

Massa at last chicane suzuka where he blamed a collision with massa on his wing mirrors (LOL).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qiuq_y7i3I

Fact, except, not fact. Pause it at the start and watch frame by frame. They are alongside travelling straight towards a corner. despite Hamilton being alongside Maldonado turned in on him, even with Hamilton turning to avoid him, Maldonado with a driver on his inside managed to go across the curb on the inside.

Later in the race I can't remember if it was Hamilton or someone else, same move on Schumi, Schumi pulled out and let him throw because it was the sensible thing to do. Hamilton pulls out when a move is silly and for instance did so multiple times against Rosberg. Multiple times since then Hamilton has had safe racing inches away from other top drivers, while Maldonado and Massa(to a decreasing but not disappeared amount) continue to hit people consistently.

The difference was back then people blamed Hamilton for being aggressive, yet when he is aggressive against Alonso, kimi, Vettel, Schumi or Rosberg, no problems. When those drivers pass Hamilton aggressively, no problem.

There are two or three drivers who defending more so but also attacking they will happily turn in on a car even if they are there.

A year or so later it was Massa and Maldonado getting penalties for doing the same things and Hamilton not getting in to trouble with really anyone else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHFj0NEUNeY

exactly the same move on Schumi, two exceptional drivers taking that corner inches apart at speed with no contact. Should Hamilton extend the same courtesy of assuming Maldonado is as good as Schumi, perhaps not. Hamilton would have given that up to Schumi, Maldonado wouldn't give that up, he turned in on a car that was there. Maldonado taking the corner wide, both finish race without contact. When there is a guy alongside you and you just turn in to them, well, there is a reason why they added it to the rules to make it clear to the two drivers in particular who consistently got away with smacking people off that year.

 

[Skeeter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qiuq_y7i3I

Fact, except, not fact. Pause it at the start and watch frame by frame. They are alongside travelling straight towards a corner. despite Hamilton being alongside Maldonado turned in on him, even with Hamilton turning to avoid him, Maldonado with a driver on his inside managed to go across the curb on the inside.

Later in the race I can't remember if it was Hamilton or someone else, same move on Schumi, Schumi pulled out and let him throw because it was the sensible thing to do. Hamilton pulls out when a move is silly and for instance did so multiple times against Rosberg. Multiple times since then Hamilton has had safe racing inches away from other top drivers, while Maldonado and Massa(to a decreasing but not disappeared amount) continue to hit people consistently.

The difference was back then people blamed Hamilton for being aggressive, yet when he is aggressive against Alonso, kimi, Vettel, Schumi or Rosberg, no problems. When those drivers pass Hamilton aggressively, no problem.

There are two or three drivers who defending more so but also attacking they will happily turn in on a car even if they are there.

A year or so later it was Massa and Maldonado getting penalties for doing the same things and Hamilton not getting in to trouble with really anyone else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHFj0NEUNeY

exactly the same move on Schumi, two exceptional drivers taking that corner inches apart at speed with no contact. Should Hamilton extend the same courtesy of assuming Maldonado is as good as Schumi, perhaps not. Hamilton would have given that up to Schumi, Maldonado wouldn't give that up, he turned in on a car that was there. Maldonado taking the corner wide, both finish race without contact. When there is a guy alongside you and you just turn in to them, well, there is a reason why they added it to the rules to make it clear to the two drivers in particular who consistently got away with smacking people off that year.

Careful, you will ignite that "smart drivers should just yeild to Maldonado as they know he's a liability" argument.

No driver should ever have to avoid fighting for a place because the opponents a liability.

 

[Skeeter]

He may not have had the best car throughout that time, but is there an argument to be had about if he had a very, very good car throughout that time... which also suited him very well?

I mean, there's a lot of talk this year about why Ricciardo's doing very well relative to Vettel, with a lot of it being put down to Vettel struggling without the rear downforce he likes, no? So, the Red Bull is still a very good car this year (even if the Mercedes is the pick of the bunch), yet Vettel can't make it work - does that back up an argument that a large part of his success was down to them having one of, if not the top car, throughout their dominant spell... twinned with the fact the characteristics of the car suited him? (Whereas if he was a 'more complete driver', he would be winning vs his teammate this year/dealing with the fact the car has different characteristics [but is still very good])...

Make sense?! I rarely post in here/am not a Vettel hater or fanboi, honest .

As I said, having the best car does not mean it was the dominant car. There's a view held by some that he's a midfield driver carried by the RBR. For that to be true the RBR would have needed to be utterly dominant by some margin all that time. My point is, it wasn't.

I hate to think what people will be saying about Hamilton after this season. RBR never had the type of advantage the Mercedes currently has. Not even close.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Seems odd to gauge performance of a driver based solely on an averaged car performance over a year?

And dominant is not the same as best. RBR have done the best job for the last 4 years with one of the best cars throughout. But they only had a car dominant enough to carry an average driver to the title in 2011 and then the latter half of 2013, which, if you look back, was my original point. I.e. the claims Vettel is meh and it was all the car only account for 1.5 of the 5 years at RBR. The rest were close enough that anaverage driver in the RBR would have been beaten by his rivals... oh hi Webber.

Who says Webber is average and not just ****, likewise if Vettel was so brilliant or even just very very good, why is he being made to look second best against his inexperienced team mate? As for that being the only way I gauge performance, I don't remember claiming that anywhere, nor do I remember claiming Vettel IS meh. I remember claiming I don't know if Vettel is great, meh, or crap.

Without possibly knowing how good Vettel actually is(and I'm not the one claiming to know, quite the opposite) it's rather silly to claim that a car was only good enough at times x,y and z to win a title with a average driver.

How do you know Vettel and Webber weren't great and there wasn't another second in that car, or that Vettel was so brilliant the car actually sucked but he was just THAT good.

Fact is anyone watching could see how ridiculously good that car was across most years. It's pretty much a myth that Red Bull made no mistakes, constant kers failures, they did make tactical mistakes, last year also(getting stuck behind Button and giving away a race because they pitted at the wrong time). Some years a mistake will mean winning by 20 seconds instead of 25, sometimes it will mean 4th instead of first.

I don't think there is anyway to accurately judge how good the driver was and how good the driver was. Outside of saying that Vettel made Webber his *****, the car was so good that I don't know.

Don't forget that when the Mclaren was brilliant for a short time, it still didn't look remotely as good as the Red Bull in corners, much like the Merc this year. It was fast in straights and had good tire wear but even when Mclaren was winning races and outqualifying them, it still looked at every stage a FAR harder to drive, far more of a handful in corners car than the Red Bull. At no stage I don't think since Brawn dropped off has the RBR not looked the easiest to drive car out there.

 

[drunkenmaster]

As I said, having the best car does not mean it was the dominant car. There's a view held by some that he's a midfield driver carried by the RBR. For that to be true the RBR would have needed to be utterly dominant by some margin all that time. My point is, it wasn't.

I hate to think what people will be saying about Hamilton after this season. RBR never had the type of advantage the Mercedes currently has. Not even close.

See this is silly also, there were multiple races in the past 4 years in which Vettel has run off at 2-3 seconds a lap off the front, then slowed down and cruised to the end. It has happened over and over again actually, so complete nonsense that it has never had this level of advantage.

it hasn't had as big a qualifying advantage(from recollection but this 1 second gap is the biggest by some margin this year, 2-6/10ths for the rest), but again the RBR is a lower top speed higher downforce car so you'd expect it to be less good in qualifying and better in race. It was a car with different priorities and strengths.

The end of last season Vettel had multiple finishes over 25seconds to second place, and RBR multiple times got pole 6/10th's ahead of the next fastest car, with multiple 1-2 front row lock outs.

Red Bull dominated the last third, almost half of last season almost exactly as much as Merc are now, and at multiple other races over the past 4 years. Complete twaddle that they've never had this kind of advantage.

 

[Skeeter]

I just find it puzziling that the phrase "can't possibly know how good he is" can be used to describe a 4 time world champion.

You might fluke a title, but not 4.

 

[Skeeter]

See this is silly also, there were multiple races in the past 4 years in which Vettel has run off at 2-3 seconds a lap off the front, then slowed down and cruised to the end. It has happened over and over again actually, so complete nonsense that it has never had this level of advantage.

it hasn't had as big a qualifying advantage(from recollection but this 1 second gap is the biggest by some margin this year, 2-6/10ths for the rest), but again the RBR is a lower top speed higher downforce car so you'd expect it to be less good in qualifying and better in race. It was a car with different priorities and strengths.

The end of last season Vettel had multiple finishes over 25seconds to second place, and RBR multiple times got pole 6/10th's ahead of the next fastest car, with multiple 1-2 front row lock outs.

Red Bull dominated the last third, almost half of last season almost exactly as much as Merc are now, and at multiple other races over the past 4 years. Complete twaddle that they've never had this kind of advantage.

Did you just make my point? All the times the RBR has dominated were the end of last season, and when he used to vanish at 2 seconds a lap at the start, which was for the whole of 2011 .
For the rest of time it was merely pretty dam fast.

 

[smr]

Brawn ran out of money half way thru 09 tbh and couldn't afford to keep up with the development that red bull for instance were pursuing tho.

 

[Skeeter]

Brawn ran out of money half way thru 09 tbh and couldn't afford to keep up with the development that red bull for instance were pursuing tho.

Brawn ran out of money before the 2009 season even started! Its a wonder they were able to last the season.

 

[JRS]

Brawn ran out of money half way thru 09 tbh and couldn't afford to keep up with the development that red bull for instance were pursuing tho.

To be honest, even if Brawn GP had had money they wouldn't have been able to do much to the BGP001. You can't take six inches out of the back of a chassis, fit an engine with the wrong crank height, bodge it all together, and still have any kind of sensible upgrade path. It needed a B-spec chassis to be built, designed around the Merc engine and 'box rather than the Honda mill. When the decision needed to be made, the BGP001 was still kicking butt. By the time the rest of the field caught up and the shortcomings of the BGP001 started to really show, it was far too late.

 

[smr]

Let's be fair to Vettel though, he has had more reliability issues than DR so far, not only that he became accustomed to a car that was properly on rails...

I mean, it's almost like a different sport this year compared to last.

The cars this year are undisputedly harder to drive, and Vettel has spent so much time driving a car with the best traction and grip, thee most planted car in the planet basically, for four years.

You don't adapt to such a significant change (car) over night.

DR was used to, let's say, a more dogged car in the Torro Rosso of yesteryear, less grip - less predictable and less planted - so it's obvious he's going to feel more at home with this year's RB10... it's what he is used to and it's what Vettel isn't used to.

I won't discount or discredit Vettel just yet - he has to be given time to adapt. But he should definitely have had enough time to make a fair judgement upon this by the end of the season imo, by which time we'll see just how good he is.

For all we know he could finish 2nd or, more reastically in optimistic terms, third in the Championship come the end of the season, beaten only by better machinery.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Again I'd point out I've only said I don't believe the previous titles prove he's a great driver, I don't know how good a driver he is. Also yes the difference between this and last years car is likely the greatest for RBR, however don't forget that the RBR is a heck of a lot more drivable with a heck of a lot better traction and downforce than all but one other car out there. It's not like the RBR is the worst car on the grid and even the lower midfield cars last year still had pretty good downforce.

Vettel is still adjusting poorly and with preseason testing, 5 weeks now of practice, qualy, races. I would have expected Vettel to adapt significantly by now. I've also said before that, poor form hits everyone in all sports.

The Ferrari looks horrible to drive right now, the merc while great is still clearly much more difficult than last year's car, they are all adapting and Vettel really is struggling against his team mate. My current impression is the first 4-5 races aren't really lining up to Vettel being brilliant. However I've said for the past 6 months in general(because we knew this year would be harder to drive, significantly harder) and more recently(because he's started poorly) that I'm not going to call Vettel crap but if he can't adapt to a more difficult to drive car and improve significantly over the season then I really don't think he's a particularly good driver. Decent, sure, great. Meh, doing well in one of the easiest to drive era's isn't much to me, doing relatively poorly in this potentially "drivers year", really doesn't suggest he's great.

I don't care about points either. Riccy would be ahead of him but for his teams stupidity. I've felt like Riccy has effectively out paced him in qualy and out driven him in races. Points are about many more things than just driving but in the same equipment, pace and race craft is almost a complete landslide in Riccy's favour right now even though Vettel is ahead on points.

 

[Flibster]

Ted's Notebook mentioned Red Bull's flexible areo winglets on the chassis. Didn't notice them myself, but someone has kindly uploaded a video.

Looks pretty clear cut there tbh.

 

[Mr Jack]

You might fluke a title, but not 4.

Who else was best driver in the Red Bull in those 4 seasons? Adrian Newey is no fluke. He's probably the greatest designer F1 has ever seen; but they award the titles to drivers not designers so Vettel gets the billing for his work (not to belittle the work put in by other members of the team).

Personally I think Vettel fluked his first season and outclassed his team mate in the best car in the others. He's certainly a good driver, he's showed that in Toro Rosso, and carried on demonstrating it in Red Bull but 4 world titles good? I don't think so and I think this season is showing his true colours. Had he sat in that Red Bull alongside a genuine top tier talent in 2010-2013 I suspect the records would look rather different. As it was, he sat next to Webber who was good, but past his best, solidly mid-tier, desperately poor at driving the Red Bull the way it needed to be driven, and even worse at getting off the line.

 

[deuse]

Ted's Notebook mentioned Red Bull's flexible areo winglets on the chassis. Didn't notice them myself, but someone has kindly uploaded a video.

Looks pretty clear cut there tbh.

Good find. I wonder if that's legal?

 

[Deleted member 651465]

Spanish GP: Pastor Malonado calls qualifying accident 'very strange'

Pastor Maldonado said his Spanish Grand Prix qualifying accident was a "very strange" one that could have been caused by low tyre pressures.

The Lotus driver failed to set a time in qualifying after losing control at Turn 3 on his first flying lap of Q1.

Maldonado, who won the 2012 Spanish GP for Williams, speared back across the track and hit the inside wall, damaging his Lotus's right-front corner.

"I think there was something wrong with the tyre temperature or pressure," he said.

"The car just skated, it's a very fast corner, and then I went over to the green path which is paint and is more slippery and I lost the car more over there.

"It was in the exit of the corner. The corner was already done. Normally all the drivers are running over that green paint, like me yesterday and always.

"It's a difficult part of the track but I think the problem came from something before."

Maldonado's team-mate Romain Grosjean qualified fifth - by far Lotus's best result of a so-far troubled 2014 season.

Rather than leaving Maldonado more frustrated because his car's potential had been wasted, the Venezuelan said Grosjean's pace actually left him encouraged for his chances of a fightback on Sunday.

"When you have a more competitive car you can see, even tomorrow, ways to recover," said Maldonado.

"The problem is when you don't have the chance to compete against the others. "Now we can compete, we can play with the strategy, we can do many good things."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113888