Speakers/amp/etc

Speakers/amp won't make that much difference, **** sound quality will just be louder **** sound quality. The head units in e39/e46 cars are **** but the speakers are very good, no other way about it. Changing just the head unit and keeping stock speakers sounds like you completely overhauled the entire hifi setup in the car but obviously a HU swap for Fox isn't an option.

It's like home cinema - I think the suggestion is to buy an amp that costs a similar amount to the rest of the speakers.

For decent sound in a car; front speakers, rears and perhaps a sub, you're looking at £150 + £250 + £300. Unless you spend over £400 on a decent amp the "amazing" speakers will still sound pretty poor.
 
I agree changing the HU makes a world of difference, I'd have thought though that the one Fox stuck in recently was better than the standard affair, and about the best he'll get without changing it again for something not as OE looking which he wants to retain.

I don't think his problem is the quality as such, just that it's a bit 'weak', if that makes sense.

It's a navigation system, not a high end amplifier.

EDIT: Fox, it may be worth looking at AVForums - they may have a car audio section over there.
 
I know, I'm saying an amp would be a good choice! Just pointing out he's already changed the HU to something likely better than stock :)

Car Audio Direct used to have a forum as well, been years since I bothered looking at this stuff so no idea if it's still used/active :)
 
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Fox
I’m going to write a complete guide for you. I may cover a lot you already know, but at least it’s comprehensive enough to cover most bases. We can go from there.

First, a couple of questions:
- Does your Headunit have a 12v Remote Out?
- Give me some idea of budget
- What sort of music do you listen to?
- Where are your speaker locations, and do you have a separate tweeter and mid-bass up front

Speakers – Sizes and Mounting
We need to establish three things, for which google Fu is key; mounting locations, maximum speaker size, and mounting depth. Factory locations usually can have an adapter fitted to fit larger speakers. Large speakers = more cone area which means better mid-bass reproduction and more air moving. Mounting depth means a bigger magnet. Which means more power, more air and better timing (sort of)

Speakers – Component vs Coaxial

Coaxial speakers are the tweeter and mid-bass cone combined on one chassis. They are easier to install, but generally have lower SQ and less mid-bass (reduction in cone area, built in crossover)

Components consist of a separate mid-bass and tweeter (and sometimes more). Wired up to a small ‘junction box’ called a crossover. They require more effort and wire to install. Generally speaker SQ. Volume and Mid-bass production are much better. If you don’t have separate tweeter and mid-bass factory locations, it’s probably not worth the effort as your first install.

Speakers – Power Ratings
wRMS is what you need to worry about. More watts doesn’t generally mean more SQ or volume. You need to have a speaker that is rated at just below your what your amplifier can drive. For your application 50-100wRMS should be sufficient

Speakers – Subwoofer
Unfortunately, subs get a bad rep. However, the bottom line is simple; to reproduce lower frequencies you need to move a LOT of air, and this means bigger cone surface area.

Fortunately for the consciounscous BMW owner, there are a multitude of stealth box options for you to peruse. Generally the best ones either mount into the side of the boot or in the spare wheel well. I’d recommend a side-mount one. Volume of the box plays a key roll, and needs to be matched to the specs of the subwoofer. You’ll probably find you need something like 1.2 Cubic feet in a sealed enclosure. This is a punchier, faster reacting sub without the boom. 10” will probably be the best compromise for you.

I’d recommend a rating of between 200wRMS and 400wRMS for the subwoofer.

Amplifiers – Channels, Power & Mounting
The amplifier takes the 5v digital signal from your RCA outputted from the headunit, and sends an analogue signal to your speakers. Each channel (mono) or pair of channels (stereo) is simply the positive and negative wire that run to the speakers. In this instance you’ll be using a pair of channels, left and right, for the front, and a mono channel for your subwoofer.
I’d recommend a class D amplifier for both your front speakers (stereo) and your subwoofer (mono). Modern class Ds are super efficient and run very cool, and the stereo ones these days are actually excellent. The SQ of JL Audios latest offering is mind blowing, and the amplifier is absolutely TINY.

I tend to select an amplifier with a power rating 10-20% greater than the speaker. Underpowering speakers is what kills them, unless you play at insane volume or stupidly excessive wattages.

If you get the class D you don’t need to worry much about ventilation. You can stealth mount it to the opposite side of the boot by fabricating an MDF panel and carpeting it.

Wiring – What you need to do
Here’s a list of each wiring run that you will need to do:
  1. 1 x power wire, split into parallel for each amplifier
  2. 1 x earth wire back from the amps to the battery or a ground on the chassis
  3. 2 x RCA pairs. From the headunit to the amps. One for the front speakers and one for the Sub.
  4. 4 x speaker wires. 2 pos and 2 neg. From the speaker amp to the X-Overs up front
  5. 8 x speaker wires from the X-Over to the front speakers. 2 wires for each midbass, and 2 for each tweeter.
  6. 2 x speaker wires from the subwoofer amp to the subwoofer
  7. 1 x Remote wire from the head unit (or other source) split into parallel for each amplifier

I’ve made you a beautiful diagram with my paint "skills".


Thick black and red - Power Wire
Thin Black and Red - Speaker positives / negatives
Blue wires - RCA cables
Purple Wire - Remote Out

Here’s an example of the kit you could buy. For the whole system we’re looking at anywhere between £500 to £1200 for decent kit.

Stereo Amp - £215 - http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/jlaudio-xd200-2.html
Speakers - £150 - http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/hertz-energy-esk-130-3.html
Mono Amp - £230 - http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/jl-xd3001-jl-audio-xd3001.html
Subwoofer - £110 - http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/hel-e10w-helix-esprit-e10w.html
Wiring Kit - http://www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/autoleads-4awg.html

You'd need proper speaker wire, an enclosure, another RCA + MDF and gubbins on top of this. The JL Audio amps I've specced are quite pricey. The SPL Dynamics ICE range is excellent, I've used them myself in systems and for the money they're stonking. I think they're ugly though. I'll be using JL Audio amps and Helix components with an Ascendant Audio Arsenal sub in my next build.

That install would probably cost £800 all in. It can be done much cheaper, and in stages.

For what it's worth. I would actually install the sub first. It's the easier job and you will be absolutey awestruck by the difference a good sub setup makes. I would also change the head unit, sorry; that 5v signal that it outputs decides the entire quality of the setup.

Ant :cool:
 
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First, a couple of questions:
- Does your Headunit have a 12v Remote Out?

Yes, I beleive it does.

- Give me some idea of budget

No idea. £200? £300? How much does this stuff cost?

- What sort of music do you listen to?

Linkin Park, Katy Perry, State of Trance and Fleetwood Mac. Also, Tinnie Tempah. Definately not Girls Aloud.

- Where are your speaker locations, and do you have a separate tweeter and mid-bass up front

Front doors, rear parcel shelf, tweeterthingies in top of door card.
 
I question the need for a sub. I have a pair of these at home
Monitor-Audio-RX1_big.jpg


And don't need a separate sub, so why do people feel the need for one in a car? In fact, when ever I have demo'd music systems it has always been with 2 speakers and an amp, with a subwoofer only being added for movies.


Why not just upgrade all your existing speakers before addressing whether to add a sub? You might find the extra punch from up rating the existing speakers does the job.

Agreed
 
I question the need for a sub. I have a pair of these at home **Image of speakers with their own enclosure, designed for the purpose, that are not designed to deal with the acousticly awful environment of a car**

And don't need a separate sub, so why do people feel the need for one in a car?

Because the home is a far, far more acousticly sound place to have a speaker setup.
Because those speakers have a sealed enclosure, and do not have to fight against an awful one, not designed for the purpose, not vibration damped or insulated.
Because your bass doesn't have to compete with traffic noise, road noise, tyre noise, loss through vibration etc





To fox. £200 - £300 won't buy you that much. Take a look at list of items specced.

You have the ability to use a component system, as described. Though not necessary, it's the way I'd go. I don't like 6x9s, at all. If you have hi/low pass on your headunit I'd probably just use them for low volume rear fill. They won't positively impact your sounstage if all you do is put some amplified ones in the factory location. They'll over power your front speakers and be loud and flabby.

To be honest though, I think you'd be suprised how happy you'd be with just a decent sub setup. However, I haven't done one in a BMW with a sealed boot before so I can't comment on it's impact on performance. You could also butcher Alpine's in line amplifier to suit your purpose; true 4x45wRMS with factory wiring. It's £100 and I hear it's excellent. Then just install the subwoofer. You could probably have a nice system for £450.
 
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[TW]Fox;21769217 said:
Would I get shot if I asked about 6x9's? They'd fit so easily..

I've used them in the past and they did the job nicely for what I wanted them for.

As said my approach would be speakers first, then amp if you're not happy with that, with a sub following that if again not satisfied :)
 
I've used them in the past and they did the job nicely for what I wanted them for.

As said my approach would be speakers first, then amp if you're not happy with that, with a sub following that if again not satisfied :)

I'd be inclined to amplify the stocks before the other way round.

I've never put uprated speakers on a stock HU. If you have I'd be interested to hear what you thought?
 
Say no to 6x9's, they don't replicate a good sound stage, always got for mids / high in door cards with sub for bass, sounds much better.

Now, you'll know better than me fox, but did the E39 have the equivelent of logic 7? If so, go on Ebay.de and search for it, it's usually cheaper than our ebay, and more importantly, will your new nav unit support the OEM speaker system? At least with the doorcard speakers, it should be a straight swap, not sure about amp / sub though.

Disclaimer - my info may be utterly useless, but i'm trying as i know how you like to keep original as possible.
 
For what its worth my ST220 goes in Monday for a full professional ICE install at my local independent. I wanted a versatile system that could handle my daughter's Barney the dinosaurs sing-along CDs and my slightly more demanding and bass driven rap, reggae and jungle collection.

Yeah its expensive (£1180) but I am getting a decent Pioneer HU, Focal tweets in custom fabricated A-pillars, Focal fronts, 4 channel Focal amp, 12" active sub in the boot, sound deadening, wiring and installation. I was happy to pay the high street premium to get it all done right first time but everyone is different of course...


They are also fabricating a false floor under the OEM boot carpet and a false side wall to house the 4 channel amp. I stressed that I wanted to keep as much of my boot space as possible for the kids stuff. Other than losing some boot space to the sub I think its gonna work out really well.

There is an excellent website dedicated to car audio - talkaudio.co.uk
 
[TW]Fox;21769195 said:
Katy Perry, State of Trance ... Also, Tinnie Tempah.

I think this is a far more pressing issue that needs addressing tbh.

:D


In all seriousness though, if the bass is lacking, but the rest sounds OK (have you tried playing with any of the DSP / EQ functions in the new head unit to see if you can make it sound crisper / clearer?) then I'd echo what others have said and find a neat looking subwoofer to install into the boot. Running the cables is dead simple and I'm sure people from this forum would be willing to help if need be. I'd not choose anything too weedy though (10" with some reasonable amplification) due to the sealed and sound-deadened nature of saloon boots. Mind you my 12" sub with a meagre 150w of amplification sounded fine in my Accord.

At this point you can address the rest - can the amplifier in the head unit not keep up with the sub? If not, add some components (you might want some custom-fit units with slimline tweeters that can fit in the existing mountings) from someone like Focal or DLS and an amplifier.

You're not going to do it for £300 though, so for that money I'd add the sub and I can be pretty sure you'll gain a decent amount by doing this. If your head unit has a crossover / high pass filter setting, you can direct the bass away from the speakers to the subwoofer, thus allowing for some more headroom before distortion.
 
I've changed most of the setup in my E46 (non-HK) (headunit, amp, sub, components). Yes, its a slightly different setup to the E39 but I looked at a lot of the options available and much of what was available for the E46 is applicable/available in E39 guise.

Speaker wise, the stock BMW speakers aren't terrible but they aren't that good either... If you are wanting to keep things looking and fitting as OEM as possible (and for ease of installation), Rainbow do some manufacturer specific fit replacement component sets or BSW are the ones to look at for full kits (but they are not cheap!).

If you can cram some slim 6.5" components into the front doors I'd thoroughly recommend it - this makes a massive difference over the random stock size speakers as there is much more bass upfront. I don't know how this would go down in an E39 but in the E46 coupe you need to come up with some bespoke bracket arrangement...its worth it though!

I put some 6.5" Rainbow components in and sound deadened the doors - the difference is night and day.

I have a reasonable active sub in the boot along with a 4ch amp running the speakers (nothing silly). Even though the boot isn't fully sealed (has split fold down) the deadening is really very good and you need to turn up the gain quite a bit for the sub to have an impact. I'd imagine the sealed boot would be worse for this. Is there a ski hatch in the E39 like in the coupe? Some people pop this through and position the sub/enclosure near the opening pointing towards the cabin.
 
I think it will need a sub personally. The slim subs could fit under the seats in the front but that would requrie crafting (a la E60 style). Personally, I think a nice, and probably ported bass unit in the boot would work.

Amp powered by battery in boot (although you'l still need it switched from the HU so that it comes on/off with the HU).
RCA run through the car from the HU to the Amp
Speaker cable runs back from the Amp to the speaker distro block behind the HU (which is the simplest method). The problem with that is, you retain the loomed speaker cable between the HU and speakers. If you want decent speaker cable to run to the speakers, you then have to consider getting that speaker cable to the doors which won't be easy (or fun).
 
knowing fox's level of "ok" with car audio, i think he'd be fine with some 6x9 subs, which is what the e46 HK setup uses and was fairly punchy tbh.

He was completely happy with the e92 base sound system, which has 2x 6.5" underseat subs, some 4.25" midranges and no tweeters, no amps...


BTW you've made me order some tweeters and slightly better midranges Fox :p got a set from a Professional HiFi spec car for £27 inc postage :D Should sound a fair bit better for having tweeters.

Will change the subs for 8 inch ones and add an amp at some point too.
 
I'd be inclined to amplify the stocks before the other way round.

I've never put uprated speakers on a stock HU. If you have I'd be interested to hear what you thought?

On a stock HU, meh it made a bit of difference when I used 6x9s instead of stock 5cm I think they were rears, but there was then an even bigger difference when swapping the HU out as the stock HU was a bit weedy power wise. The replacement whilst not comparable to a proper amp was still a bit improvement.

Fox has already swapped the HU out on his car.

I was merely using the 6x9s to provide a bit of bass over the small stock rears, no problems with the whole sound stage dragging back as that's not what they were being used for.

The fact that you can get 6x9 subs effectively nowadays I'd say this option could be a good shout as part of a first step.

I'm not saying that it's the best option for SQ, but it's probably the best compromise between expense/hassle and the improvement it could bring.
 
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There is no easy way to get bass as they are so well built. You can put in-shelf 6x9 subs, or ditch them and leave the vents into the boot with a single 10 inch setup. Alpine do underseat subs which are ok.
 
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