**SPOILERS** Football 26th Feb - 2nd Mar 2011

[The Running Man]

Valencia ahHah aha.

David silva was a decent approximation maybe. Except we would get more for nani.

 

[guyfawkes5]

No, but the original reason I posted was to mock someone who was suggesting that price.

If I say "Nani isn't worth £40m that's silly", and then you post "Yeah but he's maybe worth £30m", and then I say "Yeah, but he's not worth £40m, is he?", who exactly is wrong?*

Neither, but is £10 million really that much of a gap in price at that level to make one a serious offer and the other hilarious?

The first one was throwaway comment, and the secnod one seems to include me calling him a "semi-talented larker", so err, yeah, I'd say there was a comment on his skill there.

And not really to do with whether or not Real need him with their current squad then.

You: Fabregas is worth £50m according to you lot, and yet a sum £10 or more million less for someone with parity in stats and whom myself and various other posters here have observed to be a very skilled player is apparantly the biggest joke of the century?

(And as an aside statistically they're practically the same save a decimal point or two since Fabregrassykness has less games; Nani's aren't 'better'.)

Me: Bendtner has decent stats in the same amount of games last season, and you wouldn't see him commanding big fees, therefore stats alone are a stupid comparison. Please disregard the fact that you never claimed stats enjoy a monopoly on this debate.

What's not to get?

Fixed.

So to surmise, you don't think Nani is worth £40m, and you don't think Real Madrid will be on the phone for him any time soon, and yet you've decided to start on me, for laughing at someone who did say that?

I'm not starting on anyone; in case you think 'I don't like you' for holding a different opinion to me then think again (quite the contrary, I think you're one of the more entertaining posters in here), I thought debating is the sort of thing to do on forums (since it would be so difficult to try badminton with keyboards over such huge distances). If I come across as brash it's simply because you were so to me on your initial reply; I have no problem with it, I thought that's what we were doing here.

As to the actual argument, you originally laughed at the player and then the price tag and then, when pushed to explain, said you didn't think much of his quality - that's what I disagreed with. I too don't forsee Real Madrid going in for him, but that's not a knock against MJ in the slightest.

 

[The Running Man]

If nani is 30 mill, what does that make Nasri?

 

[Azza]

Arsenal game not on TV?!

 

[Ripper]

If nani is 30 mill, what does that make Nasri?

20m?

You think Nasri is better than Nani?

 

[FrankJH]

If Valencia has an un-disrupted season in 2011/12 I think he can surpass Nani's current standings - and possibly be a little more consistant

the good thing about Nani is that he can play on both wings - which Valencia cant do (even if Nani / Evra combo isnt working great currently)

A few years ago you would get an undisputed world class talent (or proven young prospect) for under £30m, now every player is said to be worth that much or more, the old adage "the player is worth what a club are willing to pay for him" is true here - although Im not sure Nani is worth £40m yet (although maybe when/if he shows season after season of consistancy he may be worth that soon).

Utd desperately need a left winger (or two) but have two very good right wingers, who arent that replaceble (is Nani really a winger - or more an wide-attacking player?)


edit - I think Nasri has a chance of being better than Nani, although he isnt there yet (his goals tally is good this season - but assists are woeful) - hmmm a year older than Nani, but a year less esperienced in the EPL, hmmm I thought he was younger to be honest, so maybe its more 50/50 depending on rest of this season and perhaps next too)

 

[jakeke]

A bit disingenuous to compare Nasri and Nani as they're different players, Nani is a run down wing and cross or cut inside and shoot player, I feel Nasri has more to his game, he can play as well on the wing as he does in the middle, although a winger at Man Utd and a winger at Arsenal are two different roles. Basically they're different players and I can see why Man Utd fans prefer Nani as he suits their style well and the same with Nasri and Arsenal

 

[Shamikebab]

I thought Nasri looked a bit average on the wing. Especially against United, he was barely in the game until he moved more central.

 

[CliffyBiro]

Don't rate Nani that much at all tbh. Will see how he does next year.

 

[jakeke]

I thought Nasri looked a bit average on the wing. Especially against United, he was barely in the game until he moved more central.

He's played there all season and seems to have impressed one or two people along the way, of course the true test of a footballer is how they do in a chosen game vs Man Utd.

 

[Weebull]

Neither, but is £10 million really that much of a gap in price at that level to make one a serious offer and the other hilarious?

I don't know, the original impact is a bit diluted now. If someone tells a funny joke, and then someone else re-tells it, but not as good, is it still a funny joke? How funny?

It's essentially a 25% drop, so I'd say that's pretty different, yeah.

If you really want me to pick a number out of the hat to actually say what I think Nani is worth, then sure, I can do that for you. But prices are almost always set by how much the club in question wants to buy someone, and how much the other team are willing to sell. I don't think Real will ever want Nani enough to pay £40m for him, what's to get here?

And not really to do with whether or not Real need him with their current squad then.

"Semi-talented" would quite clearly imply I don't think he's good enough for Real Madrid.

I'm not starting on anyone; in case you think 'I don't like you' for holding a different opinion to me then think again (quite the contrary, I think you're one of the more entertaining posters in here), I thought debating is the sort of thing to do on forums (since it would be so difficult to try badminton with keyboards over such huge distances). If I come across as brash it's simply because you were so to me on your initial reply; I have no problem with it, I thought that's what we were doing here.

Oh, no, absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that you were unfairly hurting my feelings or anything. All I mean by "start on me" is that you've commenced this argument/debate/clash of mental powers after an entirely separate reply I made to Frank. Don't worry, I'm not throwing the toys out of this pram yet, I get we're just disagreeing.

As to the actual argument, you originally laughed at the player and then the price tag and then, when pushed to explain, said you didn't think much of his quality - that's what I disagreed with. I too don't forsee Real Madrid going in for him, but that's not a knock against MJ in the slightest.

Well yeah I don't, I'm afraid. I don't think he's terrible by any stretch of the imagination. I just don't think he's as good as Frank was trying to make out, that's all.

To think, only the other day I was moaning about how every football thread descends into some pointless argument about Man Utd. I feel dirty now.

 

[G|mp]

Ah yes, GIMP clearly knows the score. Perhaps Carrick should be up for Ballon' Dor? He is in great form afterall. er..?

What a pointless analogy, I do know the score you;re right, I watched the game and whilst Carrick was poor like he has been for 2 seasons he was by no means the reason we lost.

The way you go on about him you would think he boned your Ma.

Fletcher was ace in the first half and then went missing in the second, that's where we lost, as soon as the Chelsea midfield and in particular Essien started to get a grip we were all over the place.

 

[Weebull]

He's played there all season and seems to have impressed one or two people along the way, of course the true test of a footballer is how they do in a chosen game vs Man Utd.

What matters is:

Can he score an overhead goal?
Will it be better than Rooney's?
No of course it won't he's clearly rubbish.

 

[G|mp]

A bit like you avoiding the flack from your crass Dean Richards comment.

I still dont think the aforementioned was headline news

I see you have avoided it yet again Frank, well done

 

[Shamikebab]

I watched the game and whilst Carrick was poor like he has been for 2 seasons he was by no means the reason we lost.

Wasn't he? I mean not solely maybe but having a central midfield that can't stand up to a strong wind has cost us several times this season and I suspect it will in the Champions League

 

[G|mp]

Wasn't he? I mean not solely maybe but having a central midfield that can't stand up to a strong wind has cost us several times this season and I suspect it will in the Champions League

He was poor yeah like I said but to lay the blame on Carrick is laughable.

The fact we should have had a penalty, a soft penalty against us, the sending off of Luiz but yet it's still Carricks fault?

Like I said Fletcher didn't come out for the second half and as he's our midfielder that battles to win the ball back that may have something to do with being over run.

 

[guyfawkes5]

I don't know, the original impact is a bit diluted now. If someone tells a funny joke, and then someone else re-tells it, but not as good, is it still a funny joke? How funny?

I don't get what you're getting at here.

If you mean you exagerrated how you felt a few pages back for comedic effect, then yeah I understand.

It's essentially a 25% drop, so I'd say that's pretty different, yeah.

If you really want me to pick a number out of the hat to actually say what I think Nani is worth, then sure, I can do that for you. But prices are almost always set by how much the club in question wants to buy someone, and how much the other team are willing to sell. I don't think Real will ever want Nani enough to pay £40m for him, what's to get here?

I don't think it's a ludicrous sum, presumably it would have to be fueled by a great Real need of a player in his position, United not wanting to sell/twisting the screws, and good form on his part, but the vast majority of the sum would be warranted now surely.

I don't really think 25% is that great a difference, obviously if we're talking £10 million it seems like a lot on its own but I would say that once you're getting into huge-ish sums the proportion of skill to price skews a bit. For instance a proven and good striker might go for £15 million, but a truly excellent one might go for £30 million. This doesn't mean the first player is half the skill of the second player, in reality the skill difference might be 10-20%. The point is that the club's paying for the second player's skill which might be twice as rare as the first player which justifies the price tag. Ergo I would say £10 or so million wouldn't mean Nani is THAT much better, maybe just better by a not insignificant amount.

I'm tripping up here, I hope you understand what the point I'm trying to make.

"Semi-talented" would quite clearly imply I don't think he's good enough for Real Madrid.

He's good enough for us, and has rescued us from some bad situations in the past. Is there such a gulf between us and Real?

All this is tangental to the stats and stuff I said earlier by the way; is he half the man of Cesc or some other fraction? Why?

Well yeah I don't, I'm afraid. I don't think he's terrible by any stretch of the imagination. I just don't think he's as good as Frank was trying to make out, that's all.

To think, only the other day I was moaning about how every football thread descends into some pointless argument about Man Utd. I feel dirty now.

I don't think Nani should be groomed as a future sell; he'll never be a Ronaldo-esque superstar and he can do a better job for us just playing.

 

[guyfawkes5]

He was poor yeah like I said but to lay the blame on Carrick is laughable.

The fact we should have had a penalty, a soft penalty against us, the sending off of Luiz but yet it's still Carricks fault?

Like I said Fletcher didn't come out for the second half and as he's our midfielder that battles to win the ball back that may have something to do with being over run.

He's at least a considerable factor.

Even when we're playing well I still notice him at least slowing down or choking our play, or at worst making mistakes all on his own. He doesn't seem capable of raising his game anymore and we shouldn't have to rely on great performances from everyone else around him to cover that up.

Yeah other mistakes were made and some other factors outside our control came into play mad, but surely it mustn't help to have dead weight in a vital area?

 

[G|mp]

He's at least a considerable factor.

Even when we're playing well I still notice him at least slowing down or choking our play, or at worst making mistakes all on his own. He doesn't seem capable of raising his game anymore and we shouldn't have to rely on great performances from everyone else around him to cover that up.

Yeah other mistakes were made and some other factors outside our control came into play mad, but surely it mustn't help to have dead weight in a vital area?

Oh I agree, I'm not defending the fact he's been **** for 2 seasons but to blame the defeat on him is daft, there was plenty of things that went against us in that game, not just Carrick being ****.

 

[The Running Man]

What a pointless analogy, I do know the score you;re right, I watched the game and whilst Carrick was poor like he has been for 2 seasons he was by no means the reason we lost.

The way you go on about him you would think he boned your Ma.

Fletcher was ace in the first half and then went missing in the second, that's where we lost, as soon as the Chelsea midfield and in particular Essien started to get a grip we were all over the place.

Wow i kind of agree with you here.

The issue i have is that often our midfield is getting dominated, hence we HAVE to use wide wing play as centrally we have nothing. Infact some of our wins lately have come from a hoisted long ball cutting out the midfield completely. (nani goal vs city for example)

This is because we have invested MILLIONs and by millions i mean, 30 berbatov, Nani, valencia, bebe etc on forwards and wingers...

Fergusen came out and said a few weeks ago that he expected our forwards to start dominating games. Except thats never going to work - because our midfield cannot hold their own against seemingly average midfield opposition.


I have said for a long time now that we have too many average players in there, and that we often have to pack it out in midfield with 3 players centrally to do the jobs of 2 normal players from another good side, because our 3 are so 1 dimensional that they couldnt function in any other way.

I dont think that anyone can go on pretending that over the last 6, 12, 18, or even 24 months that Carrick has looked nothing like a Man Utd player. He doesnt have malaria. he has no excuses for these abysmal performances. You could go out and byuy charlie adams for 10 million in January and termporarily fix the midfield, and our corner taking in 1 swoop.

Except we didnt, for some unfathomable reason. So now we are stuck with carrick till at least summer.

Im not scapegoating him completely, but he has been horrible and his mistakes seem to be key in every match. Stats dont tell you everything but no goals, no assists from Carrick, is an awful return.

Like I said Fletcher didn't come out for the second half and as he's our midfielder that battles to win the ball back that may have something to do with being over run.

Playing a player with no skill, or pace on the right wing didnt help us. Then his display oif passing in the 2nd half was soemthing to behold. it was something to show the kids in training. 'When you want to do a 45 yard diagnaonal pass, DONT DO THIS:' roll video of fletcher punting the ball off for a goal kick.

Its because he like carrick is one dimensional. He is just a good worker bee. No more, no less. Carrick is a one dimensional waste of space. Scholes has never been a defensive minded player, he clearly surpasses carrick in every way however. We need an Essien (we tried i know) someone who can pass a bit, has energy, can tackle, can score. Fletcher, carrick offer none of that.