Star Trek: Picard

[TNA]

I am not being outraged I am just laughing at the constant whinging everytime a new Star Trek is out - and I will say yes in 10 years they will feel differently.

Yeah,the problem is Star Trek fandom always do this. You need to understand that people said they would never watch Voyager since it had a black Vulcan and a female captain,and fans got so enraged death and bomb threats were sent to the offices of Paramount. DS9 was boycotted as not being proper Trek,the words of the showrunner himself:



The showrunner is laughing at the fandom,as now they went from hating DS9 to cherishing it.

It won't age well, trust me. We are not talking about an AMD graphics card here. Sure there is a lot of wine at Picard's vineyard, but it is not fine wine

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

It won't age well, trust me. We are not talking about an AMD graphics card here. Sure there is a lot of wine at Picard's vineyard, but it is not fine wine

Voyager had death threats and bomb threats over a female captain and black vulcan(vulcans couldn't be black it seems)- that is the level of hatred it inspired,ie,to the extent they had to increase security for everyone. The fandom considered it pandering(social justice and being politically correct). The showrunners even changed the character of Janeway to be more man like and stoic as they were affected by all the criticism,ie,they thought it would inspire even more rage if they actually gave her some more emotions.

I don't think even Discovery and Picard managed to get the amount of hatred Voyager got back in the 1990s.

Remember,all the raging about Enterprise when it started. In retrospective it wasn't anywhere as bad as people think it was,but it was different. Come to think of it did DS9 even inspire the amount of hate it got when it was also different,ie, set on a space station so its not real Trek(!),etc - you need to remember what people were saying back then. In today's world it looks petty critcisms,but it was a huge deal back then,having female captains,a black Vulcan,etc. It shows how petty the fanbase is - these are not big deals even in the 1990s. Shows had black and female main characters.

Ultimately my prediction is everyone will hate this as not Trek,just like the previous couple of shows were not Trek,and years down the line people will be wondering why were people moaning so much.

Its happened for the last four concluded shows(TNG,DS9,Voyager and Enterprise),so the fandom are on form with this. They literally used death and bomb threats against one and now actually like many of the characters such as 7 of 9,who was criticised by the fandom as a cheap trick to get more viewers(!). Voyager could do no right for a very long time. What I find for a show which has always had a liberal bias and been very critical about the status quo of each era its been in,many of the fans seem very conservative in nature.



TOS was controversal in many ways,and it was what many would call championing liberal social justice,and socialistic values, especially its criticism of the cold war,nuclear weapons,criticisms of capitalism(money is seen as a backward thing and the state provides for you) and its multiracial crew(including a Russian). This is in a America where racial segregation was a thing,capitalism was in full flow and barely a few years after the Cuban missile crisis,so Russia was not really loved either. So Picard's social commentary is basically very safe in comparison. Even Enterprise was basically commenting on the war on terror(the Xindi).

 

[fez]

You can have a fanbase get annoyed at what their perceive as non-star trek stuff (in the way people are talking about smoking or vaping) and then you have this **** show. I really liked discovery for the most part. Tilly was annoying and will not be looked on fondly in years to come however. That being said, this is just poor from every conceivable angle. Bad story, poor pacing, bizarre scenes, ruining a classic character, jarring SJW nonsense. Its just a hot mess.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The Expanse plainly doesn't have the budget of Picard or Discovery but it makes up for it in clarity of vision and story arc. It feels and remains consistent to itself. I guess not having however many hundred hours of canon helps. It's a fresh story not a reheated one.

Its also based on some solid books - there is some divergence but for the most part they have a solid base. The books span at least 20 to 30 years past the TV show BTW.

However,as they barely have 10 episodes to complete each book,maybe less its rushed through quite quickly - it would benefit from the old fashioned 20~26 episode seasons.

Babylon 5 was also written as a book and one showrunner who did most of the writing,so this is why it had a clear vision unlike a lot of shows. Even some of the best parts of DS9 were down to Ronald D. Moore who was the showrunner behind the rebooted BSG series,so you can see some of the religion themes crop up in BSG too(although that series probably like B5 lasted one season more than it needed to).

 

[Steampunk]

VThey literally used death and bomb threats against one and now actually like many of the characters such as 7 of 9,who was criticised by the fandom as a cheap trick to get more viewers(!).

To be fair, Seven-Of-Nine did start out as cheesecake. I happened to catch the repeats of her first episodes a few weeks back, and the silver catsuit was so sheer, you could see her muscles move under it. In later episodes with the less clingy velour catsuits, she was constantly shot with either her breasts or her butt in profile. Even breathing in the corset she was wearing underneath meant her chest had no where to go except to heave up and down like a historical bodice-ripper, so her com badge would bob up and down like a little flag saying "look at my boobs!"

I do wonder if fan complaints (or fear of them) meant the production toned down her sex appeal, and actually gave her good stories. She ended up being one of the favourite breakout characters (along with the Doctor) and showed Jeri Ryan to actually be quite a good actress. I've always thought that Voyager was underrated, because to me it does embody a lot of the ToS/TNG episodic travelling though space format. Sure there were duff episodes in a 20+ episode series, but I did like the characters and thought they worked together pretty well, with quite a bit of progression.

So it's possible without the complaints, Seven-Of-Nine might have been little more than cheesecake, instead of one of the fan-favourites. Sure, the hardcore will complain about everything, but if the general fan is not liking something, maybe it's something worth at least hearing out why that is. You may complain about the fans' rosy coloured spectacles, but that's exactly why Picard is getting made at all.

With a limited run of ten Picard episodes, and knowing where previous series have gone wrong (especially from STD), I was hoping we would get none of the duff episodes, and all the good episodes concentrated into this shortened series. Instead it looks like Kurtzman trek has just doubled down on all the issues of STD, but with the actors we have a historical or emotional attachment to, and a headline character that Patrick Stewart seems to have trouble portraying.

They could have done a lot better.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

To be fair, Seven-Of-Nine did start out as cheesecake. I happened to catch the repeats of her first episodes a few weeks back, and the silver catsuit was so sheer, you could see her muscles move under it. In later episodes with the less clingy velour catsuits, she was constantly shot with either her breasts or her butt in profile. Even breathing in the corset she was wearing underneath meant her chest had no where to go except to heave up and down like a historical bodice-ripper, so her com badge would bob up and down like a little flag saying "look at my boobs!"

I do wonder if fan complaints (or fear of them) meant the production toned down her sex appeal, and actually gave her good stories. She ended up being one of the favourite breakout characters (along with the Doctor) and showed Jeri Ryan to actually be quite a good actress. I've always thought that Voyager was underrated, because to me it does embody a lot of the ToS/TNG episodic travelling though space format. Sure there were duff episodes in a 20+ episode series, but I did like the characters and thought they worked together pretty well, with quite a bit of progression.

So it's possible without the complaints, Seven-Of-Nine might have been little more than cheesecake, instead of one of the fan-favourites. Sure, the hardcore will complain about everything, but if the general fan is not liking something, maybe it's something worth at least hearing out why that is. You may complain about the fans' rosy coloured spectacles, but that's exactly why Picard is getting made at all.

With a limited run of ten Picard episodes, and knowing where previous series have gone wrong (especially from STD), I was hoping we would get none of the duff episodes, and all the good episodes concentrated into this shortened series. Instead it looks like Kurtzman trek has just doubled down on all the issues of STD, but with the actors we have a historical or emotional attachment to, and a headline character that Patrick Stewart seems to have trouble portraying.

They could have done a lot better.

Maybe,but the threats forced the Janeway character to be under-developed(Garrett Wong said they were scared of getting more threats,so made Janeway more man like,and less feminie),and it says much of the newer fandom,when TOS had the first interracial kiss,they were up in arms with Tuvok being black. There was also critcism from some of the other actors they only concentrated on the captain(who just stayed stoic),7 of 9 and the Doctor,and ignored many of the other characters.

But regarding Picard,like TOS was a commentary on many things such as the cold war and racial segregation,Voyager commented on equal rights(women captain,native american first officer,black chief of security,asian operations officer,etc)
this in one way is kind of a commentary on the US becoming more inward looking and possibly disengaging from the world,and people being disinfrenchised with existing power structures,and wanting change as they don't serve the purpose. That is what I see it as a commentary on,and Picard being the old person,who remembers the good old days,but no one cares,as its a new world not for old people like him,especially when he is considered senile. Even the disease they mention he has,is a form of space Alzheimer's:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Irumodic_Syndrome

It was actually mentioned in TNG,that he suffered it in another timeline. So realistically think of this as an old Picard,who is dying from a neurodegenerative disorder,who is throwing his last dice to try and help the universe and redeem his own failure with the Romulans,before he finally ebbs away. Its really depressing in one way when you think about it,but it's what happens when people start suffering from realworld conditons like Alzheimer's,it eats away at them and changes them. He is not going to be the same Picard,as he is not the same man - not only is his mortality facing him,but he is full of regret for failing,when he always did a Kirk and managed to clutch victory at the final hour.

Even if there is another season or so,however good or bad this show is for fans,the end point is Picard dying of the condition.

 

[SixTwoSix]

You need to understand that people said they would never watch Voyager since it had a black Vulcan and a female captain,and fans got so enraged death and bomb threats were sent to the offices of Paramount. DS9 was boycotted as not being proper Trek,the words of the showrunner himself:

I watched TNG, DS9 and Voyager weekly the first time around and quite enjoyed them, weak episodes aside which every series has.

My problem with Picard is it's weakly written, badly edited and poorly acted through every episode we've seen so far. I'm not fed up because it's bad Trek, I'm fed up because it's fundamentally bad TV.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I watched TNG, DS9 and Voyager weekly the first time around and quite enjoyed them, weak episodes aside which every series has.

My problem with Picard is it's weakly written, badly edited and poorly acted through every episode we've seen so far. I'm not fed up because it's bad Trek, I'm fed up because it's fundamentally bad TV.

People said the same of those shows back then - hence why there was such a backlash. People look back on them now as fantastic shows,but if people didn't hate them for what they were,why were they sending death and bomb threats to Paramount? They had to change Janeway's character to be more like a man,since they were scared the fandom would send more threats if they made her remotely feminine/emotional.

My first thought was, “That's not right! What the heck was Berman talking about? Was he pulling our legs? The human characters shouldn't be forced to muffle their emotions. We were human, not androids!” But, being the newbie in Hollywood, I did not make any objections... yet. During the entire first year filming Voyager, actors were required to re-shoot certain scenes because of excessive emotion. I personally had to re-shoot only a couple of scenes, since I learned my lesson early that crossing the writer/producers was an unwise decision. Kate Mulgrew held the record for the most re-shoots, numbering in the double digits. It is a little-known fact that during the first season, Mulgrew's Janeway had a teary eye on more than one occasion, only to be vetoed by the producers and covered up with a re-shoot. If you can allow Captain Picard to bawl his eyes out for 10 minutes over the death of his relatives in the opening of the film Generations, then how on earth can you not allow Captain Janeway the chance to show some genuine emotion?

The only possible reason for why Berman did this lies in the various death and bomb threats that were sent to the Voyager production offices at Paramount Studios over the decision to have a woman in command of a starship. Maybe he was afraid of the backlash of a male-dominated America and molded Janeway into a tough-as-nails Captain devoid of human emotions. Not only were there no tears for the human characters, there were no laughs, either. Only the holographic doctor (Picardo) and the alien Neelix (Ethan Phillips) were allowed to be funny. I seem to recall that some of the most endearing and memorable moments from the original series were the light joking banter between Kirk (William Shatner), Bones (DeForest Kelley) and Spock (Leonard Nimoy). Alas, if only the human characters were allowed to be funny. As I said in my response to an earlier question, all the actors were adept at comedy. It was a waste of talent to not allow the human characters to act human. This missed opportunity was indirectly related to another tragic missed opportunity.

DS9 was considered a poor show which was poorer in everyway than TNG - don't believe me,the DS9 executive producer,Ira Steven Behr,pretty said he had the last laugh over all the criticisms the fandom gave him.

Wesley was slagged off as a character in TNG(the actor got abuse in the realworld as a kid),and older fans didn't even like the first 2 seasons of TNG,saying it was subpar,and TOS was better.

The common thread in all this,is the previous show was proper Trek and the new one is worse and not a proper part of the legacy. Its rinse and repeat for over 30 years.

This is from the actors and people who were involved in the shows,several of which have spoken out about what the fandom said even 30 years ago. They have said this in interviews and at conventions. Unless you think they were lying - I don't think they were,because I remember reading about the threats decades ago!

So if its taken TNG 52 episodes,to get appreciated,and no doubt as many for the others,I think I have enough for an attention span to actually watch 10 episodes....even 20...to make my mind up.

I remember B5 having a terrible pilot,and a slow 26 episode first season before it actually made any sense,and it might have not been everyone's cup of tea,but I liked it.

 

[Steampunk]

But regarding Picard,like TOS was a commentary on many things such as the cold war and racial segregation,Voyager commented on equal rights(women captain,native american first officer,black chief of security,asian operations officer,etc)
this in one way is kind of a commentary on the US becoming more inward looking and possibly disengaging from the world,and people being disinfrenchised with existing power structures,and wanting change as they don't serve the purpose. That is what I see it as a commentary on,and Picard being the old person,who remembers the good old days,but no one cares,as its a new world not for old people like him,especially when he is considered senile. Even the disease they mention he has,is a form of space Alzheimer's:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Irumodic_Syndrome

It was actually mentioned in TNG,that he suffered it in another timeline. So realistically think of this as an old Picard,who is dying from a neurodegenerative disorder,who is throwing his last dice to try and help the universe and redeem his own failure with the Romulans,before he finally ebbs away. Its really depressing in one way when you think about it,but it's what happens when people start suffering from realworld conditons like Alzheimer's,it eats away at them and changes them. He is not going to be the same Picard,as he is not the same man - not only is his mortality facing him,but he is full of regret for failing,when he always did a Kirk and managed to clutch victory at the final hour.

Even if there is another season or so,however good or bad this show is for fans,the end point is Picard dying of the condition.

I have no problem with social commentary and a deeper message, but it's got to be part of good TV. It's got to have good stories, characters and dialogue. You can't just shovel it out on visual effects and agenda and think that's enough. Otherwise it's just a bad drama with a Trek skin thrown over it.

 

[SixTwoSix]

@CAT-THE-FIFTH you're missing my point, I liked the shows back then, when they were aired, looked forward to them weekly. They all started a bit bad but had stand out moments even in their first seasons.

By contrast, Picard had just been poor from the off, there has been hardly any redeeming content. I stuck with it to episode 5 to see some improvement but it's going the opposite way. The latest episode was like a parody, I've seen better episodes of Orville.

BTW, you're right about B5, it started terrible but the amount of foreshadowing it had was unreal. Ended up being one of my favourite ever Sci fi shows. Pretty much kick started large arc story telling in syndicated TV shows.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I have no problem with social commentary and a deeper message, but it's got to be part of good TV. It's got to have good stories, characters and dialogue. You can't just shovel it out on visual effects and agenda and think that's enough. Otherwise it's just a bad drama with a Trek skin thrown over it.

They all had agendas - TOS was controversal in many ways,and it was what many would call championing liberal social justice,and socialistic values, especially its criticism of the cold war,nuclear weapons,criticisms of capitalism(money is seen as a backward thing and the state provides for you) and its multiracial crew(including a Russian). This is in a America where racial segregation was a thing,capitalism was in full flow and barely a few years after the Cuban missile crisis,so Russia was not really loved either. Even Enterprise was basically commenting on the war on terror(the Xindi).So Picard's social commentary is basically very safe in comparison,but its a reflection on US becoming more inward looking and possibly disengaging from the world,and people being disinfrenchised with existing power structures.

Every single one of them took at least one season to even hit is stride and remember TOS only had 3 seasons. B5 took one pilot movie and a whole season to make any sense.

How long were seasons back in the day?? 26 episodes at nearly at 44 minutes long. So it took 30+ hours of TV before TNG was loved(two seasons). The same happened with Voyager,DS9 and Enterprise - fans were moaning for dozens of episodes. Literally within 3 episodes people have already made an decision - look at Watchman. People totally made a judgement on the series within one to two episodes(it was funny when they totally didn't understand Alan Moore's universe calling it SJW pandering as he is an old school lefty),and then when you came to the end it all clicked,just as Citizen Kane(this is a film).

The fact is streaming TV and the ability to binge means people are not used to having to wait dozens of episodes for a show to click - so episodic formats and shorter season don't work at all,as people want instant gratification. If its not all explained now...that is what happened to Watchmen which was reviewed bombed by annoyed "fans".

You simply didn't have that with long syndicated shows in the US which the older Trek shows were.

I am far more patience with this - another series which took ages to click was Marvel's Agents of Shield,that took a while as it needed the films to catch up.

@CAT-THE-FIFTH you're missing my point, I liked the shows back then, when they were aired, looked forward to them weekly. They all started a bit bad but had stand out moments even in their first seasons.

By contrast, Picard had just been poor from the off, there has been hardly any redeeming content. I stuck with it to episode 5 to see some improvement but it's going the opposite way. The latest episode was like a parody, I've seen better episodes of Orville.

BTW, you're right about B5, it started terrible but the amount of foreshadowing it had was unreal. Ended up being one of my favourite ever Sci fi shows. Pretty much kick started large arc story telling in syndicated TV shows.

That is part of the problem here - we need proper 20~26 episode seasons,which stories can be developed,but its the same problem with The Expanse. 20~26 episodes per season is what we need,but the showrunners only have 10~12 episodes to rush through one book,and maybe a bit of another book,so they are doing a much better job than expected with so much material to condense IMHO.

So now people need to judge shows within a few episodes - I would argue by modern standards,TNG and B5 would have taken 2~5 modern 10 episode seasons to get upto speed,which wouldn't happen today. I dislike this mini-series format,as the story and character development has to run at superspeed. I doubt TNG or B5 would survive today.

Discovery first 2 seasons are 29 episodes,which is basically one season of old Trek!

Heck,I am surprised Agents of Shield wasn't cancelled within one season,as that took time to click,as the films had to catch up - I suppose Marvel being wealthy helped.

 

[SPG]

Agents of shield survived because of Coulson being awesome.

Same why the expanse will survive because Amos is awesome. Even Holden in the books is a wet fart. The book are also sci-fi for dweebs from A to B (nothing wrong with that) itbis far from good sci-fi its just average.

I am hoping the player of games is going to be awesome..... please be good please good.

Picard atm is just crap

 

[Steampunk]

Every single one of them took at least one season to even hit is stride and remember TOS only had 3 seasons. B5 took one pilot movie and a whole season to make any sense.

How long were seasons back in the day?? 26 episodes at nearly at 44 minutes long. So it took 30 hours of TV before TNG was loved(two seasons). The same happened with Voyager,DS9 and Enterprise - fans were moaning for dozens of episodes. Literally within 3 episodes people have already made an decision - look at Watchman. People totally made a judgement on the series within one to two episodes(it was funny when they totally didn't understand Alan Moore's universe calling it SJW pandering as he is an old school lefty),and then when you came to the end it all clicked,just as Citizen Kane(this is a film).

The fact is streaming TV and the ability to binge means people are not used to having to wait dozens of episodes for a show to click - so episodic formats and shorter season don't work at all,as people want instant gratification. If its not all explained now...that is what happened to Watchmen which was reviewed bombed by annoyed "fans".

You simply didn't have that with long syndicated shows in the US which the older Trek shows were.

I am far more patience with this - another series which took ages to click was Marvel's Agents of Shield,that took a while as it needed the films to catch up.

That is part of the problem here - we need proper 20~26 episode seasons,which stories can be developed,but its the same problem with The Expanse. 20~26 episodes per season is what we need,but the showrunners only have 10~12 episodes to rush through one book,and maybe a bit of another book,so they are doing a much better job than expected with so much material to condense IMHO.

So now people need to judge shows within a few episodes - I would argue by modern standards,TNG and B5 would have taken 2~5 modern 10 episode seasons to get upto speed,which wouldn't happen today. I dislike this mini-series format,as the story and character development has to run at superspeed. I doubt TNG or B5 would survive today.

See I think the exact opposite. Because seasons might only be ten episodes, you can't afford to have any duff or filler episodes, and there's an argument that there shouldn't be if you only need to write ten episodes. We've already had Trek with poor episodes, why haven't they learned from that, especially as they've only got ten shows to play with? The writers can't afford to have a duff one that gets forgotten about in a series of 24 when there are so few episodes. We're already half way through the series and things are not sorting themselves out.

I always remember the writer from the Space 1999 documentary who said "we should have not bothered with the poor episodes, and instead we should have put that effort into making our good episodes great". That's what you need to do when you only have ten episodes to play with. Other shows have managed to hit the mark a lot more even with a ten episode series eg, The Witcher, Carnival Row, Altered Carbon, The Boys, etc. They've not always been perfect, but they've hit the nail hard and straight, which is a lot more than STD and now Picard has. Why can't CBS do the same?

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

See I think the exact opposite. Because seasons might only be ten episodes, you can't afford to have any duff or filler episodes, and there's an argument that there shouldn't be if you only need to write ten episodes. We've already had Trek with poor episodes, why haven't they learned from that, especially as they've only got ten shows to play with? The writers can't afford to have a duff one that gets forgotten about in a series of 24 when there are so few episodes. We're already half way through the series and things are not sorting themselves out.

I always remember the writer from the Space 1999 documentary who said "we should have not bothered with the poor episodes, and instead we should have put that effort into making our good episodes great". That's what you need to do when you only have ten episodes to play with. Other shows have managed to hit the mark a lot more even with a ten episode series eg, The Witcher, Carnival Row, Altered Carbon, The Boys, etc. They've not always been perfect, but they've hit the nail hard and straight, which is a lot more than STD and now Picard has. Why can't CBS do the same?

But then you had shows like Watchmen which were review bombed as being crap,rubbish,SJW two episodes in,and then by the time the final episode dropped,people realised it all clicked. The last two episodes summed up all the threads(12 episodes). Films like Citizen Kane,the last 5 minutes basically is the punchline.

The Witcher series was changed from the books and the casting of darker skin person as Ciri lead to this:
https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/...ner-quits-twitter-backlash-ciri-bame-casting/
https://io9.gizmodo.com/a-rumored-casting-call-has-some-members-of-the-witcher-1828911116

A backlash - never!!! Then they changed Ciri to another actress,but fans were unhappy with who they used for Yennifer:
https://boundingintocomics.com/2018...flixs-the-witcher-announces-yennefer-casting/

Another backlash!! Two pre-emptive backlashes before the show aired. The series ended up OK,right?

The problem is again,the problem we had with all the previous Trek backlashes. No patience - if people here can admit loving TNG,despite over 40 hours of it plodding along,dozens of hours of the first season of Voyager and DS9 plodding along and sending death threats and abuse to actors and showrunners,then I find it utterly weird the same people now can't even wait 5 episodes.

At least wait the whole 10 episodes,before saying its the end of Trek(or whatever people are saying)...even if for the showrunners to get some feedback.

Geeks just overreact and have no patience with any series - even the series they love now had to endure years of negative fan sentiment. Even if you liked Voyager,people thought it was SJW pandering and sent death and bomb threats.....in the 1990s by mail. If it was enough for them to change the Janeway character what do you think? Wesley and the actor who portrayed him got vitriol,DS9 was considered a subpar TNG knockoff on a space station,and people were moaning even before it came out Trek,is about ships,not some space station. Before even a series like Voyager aired sci fi dorks were raging on rumours of Janeway being a women and Tuvok being black,and then raged even more when the showrunners refused to back down.

It took like 20~40 episodes for people to actually watch any of these series,and stop over-reacting about every little change. 2 episodes....insert name series...its the worst. Just look below.

Basically all this instant gratification means we will never get series like Watchman that often as they slowly build up the threads of a story - apparently we could do that for 22 episodes of B5 in the 1990s. 10 out of 12 episodes for Watchmen.

Even Westworld is having the same problem - the second season was too complex for some people to follow for only 10 episodes,and they were getting put off as there was no instant answers,just questions. How can people find a series with only 20 episodes so far,too complex to follow?

Plus if you ever watched B5 a second time,despite people saying the first season was crap,it all makes sense with what they are foreshadowing and things which happened in season one had consequences many seasons later. It was written as the prologue of a bigger story. You will never have that in any modern series.

Agents of shield survived because of Coulson being awesome.

Same why the expanse will survive because Amos is awesome. Even Holden in the books is a wet fart. The book are also sci-fi for dweebs from A to B (nothing wrong with that) itbis far from good sci-fi its just average.

I am hoping the player of games is going to be awesome..... please be good please good.

Picard atm is just crap

People here said AOS was crap,the story was going nowhere and it was boring.

A couple of examples over here when it first started:

Spoiler

Thought the dialogue was particularly un-Whedon, it was clumsy and painful at times. The scientist geeks were awful in every way, poor actors, poor lines, it's painfully bad writing when every scientist person is just a geek who can't speak normally, cliched rubbish, totally un-Whedon.

The bird who was in ER and Stargate Universe is a generally irritating/awful actress but as yet wasn't poor in this, had a fairly small role in this particular episode. Main guy who, as above is probably a clone or similar, is good, HIMYM women was decent in the film and this. The main new agent guy was good enough.

It was so cliche ridden though it was cringe worthy, the "you'll never find me" open door bit, the truth serum. There is potential but it felt, not cool and expensive but rather cheap and rushed. They are doing that in your face camera work very often and not a strong cast of known people. Considering the money going into Avengers and all the films it seems odd to make a tv show to gel with the universe that felt such a different style in terms of cast/quality/camera work.

It wasn't terrible, it wasn't great, considering the franchise I was expecting something much bigger, much grander, with a much stronger cast/writing and better directing/camera work.

Spoiler

I was really looking forward to this, I'm not usually that bothered about TV series (except for Fringe which was ruined in season 5 for me) but I'd read the previews and after how good the films were, got a bit caught up in the excitement....big mistake.

I hated the scientists as well, why on earth do they have to be so cliché that they can't function or speak as normal human beings just because they understand technology?

I was expecting something more intelligent I think, I don't know why.

What really bugs me is how young some of the people are, the scientists especially, I can't take them seriously at all because I don't believe they would have that level of experience of government clearance.

Finally...

the flying car was just stupid and gimmicky

If this is all they could do with the pilot for Marvel series, then just imagine what's coming once lower budget mid season episodes appear.

Spoiler

Thought it was the worst pilot Whedon has produced, very poor quality for both the franchise and Whedon, As DM said, it felt if anything very Un-Whedon with the writing.

Apart from the established characters, the cast was poor, nice to Book from firefly make an appearance but all the new actors felt sub par for a Whedon show, disappointed.

I'm going to watch to watch the entire season with hope it kicks on from here, but that was **** poor. Thought it was the worst pilot Whedon has produced, very poor quality for both the franchise and Whedon, As DM said, it felt if anything very Un-Whedon with the writing.

Apart from the established characters, the cast was poor, nice to Book from firefly make an appearance but all the new actors felt sub par for a Whedon show, disappointed.

I'm going to watch to watch the entire season with hope it kicks on from here, but that was **** poor.

Christ it's awful :/

The cheap Keira Knightley is really annoying.

Didn't even make it to half way through episode 3 (guess I'm missing the bits above ) it was just so incredibly tedious by that point I just had to find something better to do with my time.

For me its not working as an adult prime time show and can't shake the thought that it would have been more suited to losing the 1 or 2 adult quips per episode and being aimed at early teens. It's the kind of thing i would have enjoyed as a kid on a Saturday afternoon/evening but just isn't working in it's current form.

But then what do i know seeing as i cringe at some of the shows i loved back then

I cant believe how bad this series is, everyone in it is so dull

For me its not working as an adult prime time show and can't shake the thought that it would have been more suited to losing the 1 or 2 adult quips per episode and being aimed at early teens. It's the kind of thing i would have enjoyed as a kid on a Saturday afternoon/evening but just isn't working in it's current form.

But then what do i know seeing as i cringe at some of the shows i loved back then

TBH not looking forward to this at all (still need to watch the first episode), regardless of the comments across the forums, most of the trailers just looked TERRIBLE with regards to the script, cast, plot, acting etc.

Should continue Buffy or/and preferably Angel!

Hmm, the concept is a good one, it would be nice to have the story of the people that have to clean up the mess of the avengers.. but.. as with most things, I am quite sure the networks will drop it pretty quick in favour of "my neighbours got talent" or something retarded like that.

With all the superhero competition atm it needed to be better. Even the Tomorrow People remake that's starting soon looks better and it's from the CW channel, then there's things like The Flash, Constantine and Gotham that will be here next season.

Mid season final its meant to hold you in suspense till the show returns, that episode didn't do a very good job just when the show was picking they went and showed that kind of episode.

Started watching this recently, must be 6 episodes in or so by now. Cheesy, so very cheesy. That being said, the most recent ep I saw (with the alien helmet thing infecting people) was quite well done.

Still, they could do with cutting half the number of puns/jokes per episode, it just gets silly.

Just a few comments on here on the first 5 episodes of AOS,5 episodes of a 20+ episode season it was already judged a failure,and it was going to get cancelled and Gotham and Constantine(LOL) would survive longer.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Don't worry guys,one month more and it will be all over,then you can look forward to Star Trek Discovery! I might need to order industrial quantities of popcorn for that one.

 

[TNA]

But then you had shows like Watchmen which were review bombed as being crap,rubbish,SJW two episodes in,and then by the time the final episode dropped,people realised it all clicked. The last two episodes summed up all the threads(12 episodes). Films like Citizen Kane,the last 5 minutes basically is the punchline.

The Witcher series was changed from the books and the casting of darker skin person as Ciri lead to this:
https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/...ner-quits-twitter-backlash-ciri-bame-casting/
https://io9.gizmodo.com/a-rumored-casting-call-has-some-members-of-the-witcher-1828911116

A backlash - never!!! Then they changed Ciri to another actress,but fans were unhappy with who they used for Yennifer:
https://boundingintocomics.com/2018...flixs-the-witcher-announces-yennefer-casting/

Another backlash!! Two pre-emptive backlashes before the show aired. The series ended up OK,right?

The problem is again,the problem we had with all the previous Trek backlashes. No patience - if people here can admit loving TNG,despite over 40 hours of it plodding along,dozens of hours of the first season of Voyager and DS9 plodding along and sending death threats and abuse to actors and showrunners,then I find it utterly weird the same people now can't even wait 5 episodes.

At least wait the whole 10 episodes,before saying its the end of Trek(or whatever people are saying)...even if for the showrunners to get some feedback.

Geeks just overreact and have no patience with any series - even the series they love now had to endure years of negative fan sentiment. Even if you liked Voyager,people thought it was SJW pandering and sent death and bomb threats.....in the 1990s by mail. If it was enough for them to change the Janeway character what do you think? Wesley and the actor who portrayed him got vitriol,DS9 was considered a subpar TNG knockoff on a space station,and people were moaning even before it came out Trek,is about ships,not some space station. Before even a series like Voyager aired sci fi dorks were raging on rumours of Janeway being a women and Tuvok being black,and then raged even more when the showrunners refused to back down.

It took like 20~40 episodes for people to actually watch any of these series,and stop over-reacting about every little change. 2 episodes....insert name series...its the worst. Just look below.

Basically all this instant gratification means we will never get series like Watchman that often as they slowly build up the threads of a story - apparently we could do that for 22 episodes of B5 in the 1990s. 10 out of 12 episodes for Watchmen.

Even Westworld is having the same problem - the second season was too complex for some people to follow for only 10 episodes,and they were getting put off as there was no instant answers,just questions. How can people find a series with only 20 episodes so far,too complex to follow?

Plus if you ever watched B5 a second time,despite people saying the first season was crap,it all makes sense with what they are foreshadowing and things which happened in season one had consequences many seasons later. It was written as the prologue of a bigger story. You will never have that in any modern series.



People here said AOS was crap,the story was going nowhere and it was boring.

A couple of examples over here when it first started:


























Just a few comments on here on the first 5 episodes of AOS,5 episodes of a 20+ episode season it was already judged a failure,and it was going to get cancelled and Gotham and Constantine(LOL) would survive longer.

The examples you keep using are not even related to the issues I am having with the show. You will always find people complaining about something if you look hard enough online. Does not mean the show will magically get better in 10 years.

I still feel exactly the same way about Enterprise as I did when watching them as they were released. Only ever watched it once again since it first aired and that was to watch it with my partner. We have watched TNG like 3-4 times in the same time period and actually fancy watching it again soon.

With discovery so far I will never watch it again. With Picard it is hard to say just yet. But I probably will watch it at least once more, assuming it does not get worse.

 

[MissChief]

Some of you have mentioned Agents of Shield. Once out from under the watchful gaze of the MCU it went on to being a great show. Season four on some of the best TV in recent years for me. And if you do give it a go you need to stick with it until episode 17 of season one. Those who watched will know why.

 

[SixTwoSix]

Geeks just overreact and have no patience with any series.

I've watched The Wire, in it's entirety, 3 times all the way through...even season 2...now tell me I have no patience.

I respect your blind devotion to this show Cat, really I do, it's almost admirable.

However, all your arguments defending it come back to...but TNG, but DS9, but Voyager...how about simply defending it on it's own merits, based on the 5 episodes we've had, without referring to online backlash nonsense and historic dislike of other shows.

I said it before, i'll say it again...just so you don't miss it, i'll even re-quote myself...pay special attention to the bolded and underlined part.

My problem with Picard is it's weakly written, badly edited and poorly acted through every episode we've seen so far. I'm not fed up because it's bad Trek, I'm fed up because it's fundamentally bad TV.

Your argument of needing 20+ episodes to bed in is nonsense as well, there are a multitude of truly great shows out their, both in sci-fi and other genres that have been excellent with just 10 episodes, hell, even 2 or 3 episode runs.

 

[chroniclard]

Its entertaining guff, much like all Star Trek shows have been. DS9, TNG, Voyager, none of them were amazing shows. I didnt even bother finishing all of Voyager or DS9 as they were a bit pants.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I've watched The Wire, in it's entirety, 3 times all the way through...even season 2...now tell me I have no patience.

I respect your blind devotion to this show Cat, really I do, it's almost admirable.

However, all your arguments defending it come back to...but TNG, but DS9, but Voyager...how about simply defending it on it's own merits, based on the 5 episodes we've had, without referring to online backlash nonsense and historic dislike of other shows.

I said it before, i'll say it again...just so you don't miss it, i'll even re-quote myself...pay special attention to the bolded and underlined part.



Your argument of needing 20+ episodes to bed in is nonsense as well, there are a multitude of truly great shows out their, both in sci-fi and other genres that have been excellent with just 10 episodes, hell, even 2 or 3 episode runs.

It's not blind devotion,its more the devoted blind hatred people have, I find funny with all these new shows when they start - people just moaning and moaning.

The blind devotion to the hatred is just impressive,to the extent that death threats are backlash nonsense?? I will dare you to go to a Trek convention and tell one of the Voyager people that.

You talk about shows being defined on merit,that is what the fandom did for ALL the new Trek shows,and started moaning from episode one. It's deja vue all the time any new Trek series is out - if it wasn't the message boards,it was strongly written messages to magazines,moaning on TV shows,etc.

Also for some of you if you didn't find any merit in any new Trek show,then do you think its going to get better?? The newer shows are representative of a new generation of people and attitudes,so just enjoy something old.

They WON'T suddenly change and you won't be getting 1980s/1990s Trek back,just like you won't be getting 1960s Trek back - they are shows of their time.

Regarding backlashes,lots more information out there - I haven't even scratched the surface.

Garett Wong knows better than you:

https://intl.startrek.com/article/straight-talk-with-voyagerundefineds-garrett-wang-part-i

The only possible reason for why Berman did this lies in the various death and bomb threats that were sent to the Voyager production offices at Paramount Studios over the decision to have a woman in command of a starship. Maybe he was afraid of the backlash of a male-dominated America and molded Janeway into a tough-as-nails Captain devoid of human emotions.

So fans like you got so enraged they sent death threats because they hated Voyager so much and thought it wasn't threat...rang or sent mail. This is pre-internet death threats.

On DS9:

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/how-star-trek-deep-space-nine-laid-the-groundwork-for-discovery

Instead, they are paraphrased from the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine documentary What We Left Behind, which debuted in theaters and is coming to a television screen near you soon. The show endured very familiar backlash from the “fans.”

https://intl.startrek.com/article/rick-berman-looks-back-at-18-years-of-trek-part-2

Going into DS9 -- with a space station, stories about war, politics and religion, a fractious crew and a commander of color -- how ready were you for the backlash from the portion of the fan base that felt the show wasn’t their father’s Star Trek?


Berman: At that point, our biggest concern was to do something different. We had a show that was on the air. We had no idea how long it was going to be on the air, but we knew that it was going to continue to be on the air for at least another few years. We didn’t want to send another crew out on a spaceship at the same time the TNG crew was out on the Enterprise. Michael (Piller) and I spent a long time thinking about this. One of the things that Brandon Tartikoff, who was the head of the studio at the time, suggested was The Rifleman, which was a show that he loved when he was a kid. It’s a father and a son out doing good deeds on the prairie. This was an era when television executives loved to say, “Let’s do The Partridge Family meets Father Knows Best.” Roddenberry evidently had talked about “Wagon Train in space” 20 years before and DS9 was “The Rifleman in space.” I think what Michael and I ended up pulling from that was the idea of a father and a son, and we chose to do the story of a man who had recently lost his wife, who was very bitter, and was sent to a very distant space station that was not a Federation facility. As a result, we could have a lot of non-Starfleet people.

https://trekmovie.com/2019/05/13/in...f-with-star-trek-ds9-and-what-we-left-behind/

Ira Steven Behr And Nana Visitor On ******* People Off With ‘Star Trek: DS9’ And ‘What We Left Behind’

TrekMovie: The documentary talks about how Deep Space Nine was seen as the “middle child” of Star Trek. How was that manifested at the time on the set or around the show?

Nana Visitor: What filtered down onto the set was a generally feeling that that’s not how it’s done, that is not how we do Star Trek. That is not how you play a female on Star Trek. I got that a lot. And I got pushback from fans as well about my character. We were pushing the envelope and it was something new. As a cast, we felt shunted to the side, certainly.

Did this happen at conventions?

Nana Visitor: 25 years ago a woman with strong feelings and issues and things that she had gone through – anger, appetites – she was called a bitch. I was called a bitch all the time, all the time. And now today that really wouldn’t happen. But I remember the feeling of being really clear about what I am trying to play here and who this woman is. I really didn’t know it had a name – Post Traumatic Stress – which obviously from her life was going on for her. But I knew it was important to hold on and not care and stick to it. And that is what I did.

https://www.salon.com/2019/05/12/re...p-space-nine-a-controversial-sci-fi-landmark/

The critical and popular response to "Deep Space Nine" was very mixed at the time. The show, in my opinion, was very unfairly compared to "Star Trek: The Next Generation." Given the new documentary and how "Deep Space Nine" is now so beloved, did you have the last laugh?

I don't think I would describe it as having the last laugh. I think that it's a good feeling to see that all the things that I wanted to do with "Deep Space Nine," which at the time seemed to create some very strong counter opinions and perpetual fighting, finally pay off. I always felt that ultimately, in some way, that would be a vindication. But it wasn't really about the vindication. All I can control is how I wanted "Deep Space Nine" to be presented to the public, and I had very strong thoughts about that. I just wanted to feel that I was satisfied with the show, and of course that's easier said than done. There were times we didn't live up to what I had hoped for, but we never gave up fighting and that's what I'm proudest of.

"Not our Trek" - sound familar?

That is just for DS9....the backlash was so bad...the actors and showrunners put two fingers up at the fandom and persisted with their vision. In the end all the fans shut up eventually and decades later to put DS9 on a pedestal.

But as usual the same lot here will have the nostalgia glasses on and think that there was zero backlash to any of these shows. Its admirable how a number of you are trying to even not acknowledge how bad the backlashes were.

The same people here moaning about the latest "insert name new sci-fi show" admit even TNG and B5 took at least 20 episodes to even get upto speed. Its double standards really.

This is what Trek fans do every time a new show arrives,moan,whine,"its not Trek",moan,moan.

The thing is give it another 10 years,and if there is another Trek show,I expect most of you will be saying that Picard and Discovery were better shows,than the new,etc.

I expect the next episode will be even be more moaning.

So agree to disagree until the next backlash,and better not continue this conversation anymore as the stances won't be changing.

The examples you keep using are not even related to the issues I am having with the show. You will always find people complaining about something if you look hard enough online. Does not mean the show will magically get better in 10 years.

I still feel exactly the same way about Enterprise as I did when watching them as they were released. Only ever watched it once again since it first aired and that was to watch it with my partner. We have watched TNG like 3-4 times in the same time period and actually fancy watching it again soon.

With discovery so far I will never watch it again. With Picard it is hard to say just yet. But I probably will watch it at least once more, assuming it does not get worse.

Hard?Death threats,etc - these were well publicised at the time. Also,the critcisms I posted from AOS,were in the first few pages of the thread for AOS. Look at Witcher 3 - even before the series aired there was such a backlash,that people resigned from the show due to the hatred. Watchmen backlash was utterly hilarious.

I conclude geeks like backlashes. Not that it ever works,as even the new Trek films still did better than the old ones,even if many of us here will have more nostalgia for the older ones.

IMDB rates this reasonably OK,and certainly better than Discovery. Rotten tomatoes tends to be review bombed by annoyed fans - just look at Watchmen.

Just look upwards at the quotes from the actors and crew behind DS9 - they had to encounter a backlash on what is now considered one of the best Star Trek series. The fact is the Trek fandom does this all the time,so what did the DS9 people do?? They put two fingers up at the fandom and continued onwards...because its one thing moaning but what the fandom does is overegg it, so much the only way to do anything is to basically stop making the show.

Also for some of you if you didn't find any merit in any Trek show after Voyager,then do you think its going to get better?? The newer shows are representative of a new generation of people and attitudes,so just enjoy something old.

Sci fi shows are also moving to darker realism,unlike the older shows which had this slight fantasy feel about. That change you need to blame to new BSG and GOT. Most sci-fi shows try to ape that "grittiness" and why shows such as The Orville are trying to be more in the vein of older shows,which are less "gritty". The same happened with the Stargate tv series,they went "gritty".

Hence they WON'T suddenly change and you won't be getting 1980s/1990s Trek back,just like you won't be getting 1960s Trek back - they are shows of their time.

So best for some of you to save your time,and move to other shows.