Starting a career in I.T without a degree?

radderfire · 16 Apr 2016 at 11:50

Rossuk89 said:
Wouldn't C# or Java be a bit tough to learn as someone with zero knowledge on computer languages?

No.

Chaos · 18 Apr 2016 at 00:17

Rossuk89 if you want to have a bash at programming there are lots of free courses from some of the best Uni's in the world.

You could check out cs50 for a beginner course -

https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-computer-science-harvardx-cs50x

dowie · 18 Apr 2016 at 00:42

sorry, forgot to reply to this

Rossuk89 said:
So you're saying that even if I want to become a software developer or a DBA, I can access those career paths through support roles within a company? as well as other I.T roles

At some companies, yes. I'm not taking about support in general but specifically application support where you'll interact a lot with developers etc..

1. What would be the best steps for me to take in the next year or so in order to obtain a software developer job (realistically of course)?

2. Would learning Python over the next year be the best first step?

I'm not sure what would necessarily be best but if I were in your situation I'd probably look at some EDX/Coursera/Udacity certificates - maybe one of the Udacity Nanodegrees would be worth a look as they also have a career service and involve building a bunch of projects you could then show to an employer. You could then look at working on some personal projects too and publishing them... I can't say for sure but that ought to at least land you an interview somewhere for some junior role.

As for language I think any of Java, Python and C# initially would be fine - you might be constrained intiially by whatever the MOOC certificate you chose to pursue uses anyway. I'd also get various basic technical skills up to scratch - learn about databases, networking etc..

dowie · 18 Apr 2016 at 00:50

Chaos said:
Rossuk89 if you want to have a bash at programming there are lots of free courses from some of the best Uni's in the world.

You could check out cs50 for a beginner course -

https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-computer-science-harvardx-cs50x

^^^ that is probably a good place to start... (similar courses on udacity and coursera too)

Just one note - if you've got the time available... MOOCs are often watered down in comparison to proper university courses. For example if you want the full fat Stanford introduction to Computer Science courses then they're available here:

https://see.stanford.edu/Course

you won't get a certificate but they're the actual lectures given to Stanford students.

Same applies to the machine learning course on coursera and the full Stanford version contained there if you do that later on.

drakioned · 18 Apr 2016 at 08:37

Rossuk89 said:
I understand. I just keep reading about Python being a good language to learn to understand concepts and theories.

Wouldn't C# or Java be a bit tough to learn as someone with zero knowledge on computer languages?

I think Python would be a particularly bad language to start with. It's fine as a scripting/web programming language, but I think it teaches some bad habits if it's your first language.

Ayahuasca · 18 Apr 2016 at 09:21

I started with python and switched to java after doing some reading and job searching in my local area, barely any job adverts asked for experience with python. Potentially a good thing to have though as it could make you stand out a little but primarily they'll be looking for skills in the languages they ask for.

Brumboy · 19 Apr 2016 at 14:10

radderfire said:
No.

Good to know

Chaos said:
Rossuk89 if you want to have a bash at programming there are lots of free courses from some of the best Uni's in the world.

You could check out cs50 for a beginner course -

https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-computer-science-harvardx-cs50x

Awesome I'll watch that video and read into it further.

There is so much information about it's hard to pick which ones to actually follow. On this thread alone there is loads of links and courses etc

You guys recommend CodeAcademy too as that is another popular one from what I can see?

Brumboy · 19 Apr 2016 at 14:17

dowie said:
sorry, forgot to reply to this

At some companies, yes. I'm not taking about support in general but specifically application support where you'll interact a lot with developers etc..

I'm not sure what would necessarily be best but if I were in your situation I'd probably look at some EDX/Coursera/Udacity certificates - maybe one of the Udacity Nanodegrees would be worth a look as they also have a career service and involve building a bunch of projects you could then show to an employer. You could then look at working on some personal projects too and publishing them... I can't say for sure but that ought to at least land you an interview somewhere for some junior role.

As for language I think any of Java, Python and C# initially would be fine - you might be constrained intiially by whatever the MOOC certificate you chose to pursue uses anyway. I'd also get various basic technical skills up to scratch - learn about databases, networking etc..

Yeah I know now, that will be an option too, basically since I'm starting at the bottom anything will be a step up.

Are these paid courses worth it though? I mean there's enough free information/courses/video/lectures about that I was hoping I could avoid paying for a course and learn a lot of what I need from those free materials.

But you also mentioned EDX too which other people in this thread have approved too, that course is free correct but the certificate you have to buy?

See people say Python is a good beginner language as it is easy to read. But that it's not always a required language by companies.

But then you have Java and C# which are also popular.

I just want to learn the one that will most likely land me a junior developer role and get me an interview to be honest.

Brumboy · 19 Apr 2016 at 14:39

dowie said:
^^^ that is probably a good place to start... (similar courses on udacity and coursera too)

Just one note - if you've got the time available... MOOCs are often watered down in comparison to proper university courses. For example if you want the full fat Stanford introduction to Computer Science courses then they're available here:

https://see.stanford.edu/Course

you won't get a certificate but they're the actual lectures given to Stanford students.

Same applies to the machine learning course on coursera and the full Stanford version contained there if you do that later on.

I'm watching some of the first episode from CS50 at the moment. You also recommend that then?

So is it a case of watching all these video's and doing what they do? this is free right?

I'll note that down aswell mate thanks

drakioned said:
I think Python would be a particularly bad language to start with. It's fine as a scripting/web programming language, but I think it teaches some bad habits if it's your first language.

Another no to Python

What would you recommend then?

Ayahuasca said:
I started with python and switched to java after doing some reading and job searching in my local area, barely any job adverts asked for experience with python. Potentially a good thing to have though as it could make you stand out a little but primarily they'll be looking for skills in the languages they ask for.

Yeah I have read this too in an article. Java seems to always be in demand so I may start that instead.

dowie · 19 Apr 2016 at 14:54

I've not done CS50 but it seems like it would be a good intro, yes these courses will tend to have small assignments etc.. to complete. It is usually free to watch the videos but some of them charge for certificates. If the marking/assessment is done by a human too then you'll need to pay too. But generally the lectures/teaching material is free. you don't have to have a certificate but it might be useful to have one or two and just self study other things... the SEE courses I linked to don't have certificates but are a solid introduction to computer science (they cover Java in the first course then C++ in the second two + some LISP)... you'll not get a bit of paper but you'll certainly get some good learning material there. On the other hand having a certificate from a udacity nanodegree complete with coursework could be useful... then maybe try your own projects too.

Brumboy · 19 Apr 2016 at 14:58

Right so from looking at my bookmarks (I've got almost 100 websites saved about programming and career advice now) the main sites that are recommended from you guys and other forums/articles are:

CodeAcademy
EDX
Udacity

I'd like to focus on one of those to begin with. They all seem to offer free beginner classes/courses.

I do like the look of this CS50, the guy presenting it makes it entertaining to watch. But again this is free and the certificate is option at 90 dollars? I don't quite understand how these sites work.

Brumboy · 19 Apr 2016 at 15:07

dowie said:
I've not done CS50 but it seems like it would be a good intro, yes these courses will tend to have small assignments etc.. to complete. It is usually free to watch the videos but some of them charge for certificates. If the marking/assessment is done by a human too then you'll need to pay too. But generally the lectures/teaching material is free. you don't have to have a certificate but it might be useful to have one or two and just self study other things... the SEE courses I linked to don't have certificates but are a solid introduction to computer science (they cover Java in the first course then C++ in the second two + some LISP)... you'll not get a bit of paper but you'll certainly get some good learning material there. On the other hand having a certificate from a udacity nanodegree complete with coursework could be useful... then maybe try your own projects too.

Right that makes more sense thanks for that clear explanation.

Do I get some kind of login and complete assignments on their system? then once I complete them and get a certain grade they offer a certificate to prove I've done the course?

Are these certificates actually worth something in the real world with companies?

So I could really just complete this CS50 course for example and pay to get the certificate and like you said self study other things to get my knowledge and skills to a good standard (good enough to get some interviews in the future). The certificate is just proof that I can do basic things.

I could combine this CS50 with the SEE courses you mentioned or CodeAcademy, would that be a good place to start?

Sorry for all the questions I'm just trying to gather as much information as possible to get a good idea of where to start exactly since there's tonnes of stuff around.

dowie · 19 Apr 2016 at 16:45

It depends on the course - you're asking questions now that you could find the answer to by looking on the websites of the specific courses. Yes I think something like the CS50 course, SEE courses and maybe a udacity nanodegree would be a good start, that is why I suggested them. As for how employers will look at them, that will vary - some employers clearly value udacity nanodegrees for example, if you look on the website you'll see some of the modules are created by employers. Likewise there are employers creating industry related courses on EDX too. Other employers might not have even heard of them.

These aren't generally considered to be the equivalent of formal education though, I wouldn't want to give that impression, but they're at least a way of demonstrating that you've studied something (especially if you've got coursework, projects etc.. to show for it). So even if an employer isn't familiar with MOOCs being able to explain what you've learned or being able to show what you've created could be useful regardless.

drakioned · 20 Apr 2016 at 11:01

Rossuk89 said:
I just want to learn the one that will most likely land me a junior developer role and get me an interview to be honest.

Java or C#

They're basically interchangeable for beginners.

Possibly C++ if you're feeling more adventurous.

Brumboy · 20 Apr 2016 at 12:45

dowie said:
It depends on the course - you're asking questions now that you could find the answer to by looking on the websites of the specific courses. Yes I think something like the CS50 course, SEE courses and maybe a udacity nanodegree would be a good start, that is why I suggested them. As for how employers will look at them, that will vary - some employers clearly value udacity nanodegrees for example, if you look on the website you'll see some of the modules are created by employers. Likewise there are employers creating industry related courses on EDX too. Other employers might not have even heard of them.

These aren't generally considered to be the equivalent of formal education though, I wouldn't want to give that impression, but they're at least a way of demonstrating that you've studied something (especially if you've got coursework, projects etc.. to show for it). So even if an employer isn't familiar with MOOCs being able to explain what you've learned or being able to show what you've created could be useful regardless.

I've looked into it more now and I'm going to enroll in the CS50 course and try and get that completed in the next few months. It looks like that course will teach me the basics and get me to grip with the theories etc. I will most likely get the certificate too. Hopefully I don't find it too difficult.

You're right, I keep reading time and time again that the most important thing to get a job as a software developer especially as someone without a degree or experience is to create a portfolio with evidence of your knowledge, so putting code on there, evidence of contributions to projects and own personal projects.

So completing this CS50 course and learning about Java through youtube videos, CodeAcademy and other free online resources will be my plan.

Any other tips guys?

(you lot have been incredibly helpful and patient with my questions, it's amazing to have this forum as a valuable resource)

drakioned said:
Java or C#

They're basically interchangeable for beginners.

Possibly C++ if you're feeling more adventurous.

Got it, Java it is, I hope I can understand it!

It's interesting to read how people who have a good understanding of one language can learn another one quite fast.

drakioned · 21 Apr 2016 at 16:17

Rossuk89 said:
It's interesting to read how people who have a good understanding of one language can learn another one quite fast.

Well, that's because they're really not that different.

This is a function that calculates the factorial in Java.

public static int factorial(int n) {

int fact = 1;
for (int i = 1; i <= n; i++) {

fact *= i;
}
return fact;
}

This is a function that calculates the factorial in C#.

public static int factorial(int n)
{
int fact = 1;
for (int i = 1; i <= n; i++)
{
fact *= i;
}
return fact;

}

This is a function that calculates the factorial in C++.

int factorial(int n);
int factorial(int n)
{
int fact = 1;
for (int i = 1; i <= n; i++)
{
fact *= i;
}
return fact;

}

drakioned · 21 Apr 2016 at 16:21

It only gets different when you try programming language in a different paradigm. i.e. Haskell or Prolog or something like this.

This is the same example in Haskell

factorial n :: Integer -> Integer
factorial n = product [1..n]

Brumboy · 23 Apr 2016 at 07:50

I see! Now I see why.

I have started the CS50 course and into week 2 of it (12 weeks total).

I must admit it has been over 10 years since I've had to study for anything so it's taking time to get used to it.

I just hope I can understand what's to come in this course aswell as understand Java. I sometimes google Java and have a look at the language and it seems very complicated from glancing but I haven't studied any Java yet though.

Even though this CS50 course is interesting and I am learning a lot is it necessary to complete before learning Java?

For example if I were to dive straight into learning Java from CodeAcademy, YouTube and other websites would that be too difficult?

Sheff · 23 Apr 2016 at 19:33

Codeacademy is aimed at beginners so you would probably have no problems at all with the java course on there, if you have the time I would suggest just giving it a go.

The sql course on codeacademy and some MI experience while working for an IT servicedesk landed me an Information Analyst role without a degree so it's certainly possible.

Two months in and I'm being trained to be the department's DBA, writing stored procedures in SQL and data extraction console applications in C#.

Brumboy · 24 Apr 2016 at 04:24

Great I'll start learning Java on CodeAcademy to start with

What is MI experience?

Wow so even though CodeAcademy is aimed at beginners there is still enough on there to teach you to be able to get promotions? that's pretty cool

Congratulations that sounds awesome, becoming a DBA, you're sorted then!