Steam prices! Grey key sites! and the I love/hate developers thread - Enter if you dare!

[Amnesia]

So it's better to sell 100 copies at £5 than 10 copies at £40...

Too simplistic. It's better to sell 100,000 copies at £30 and 50,000 copies at £10, than it is to sell 50,000 copies at £30 and 100,000 at £10.

So he says its better to make more sales at a cheaper price than less sales at a higher price.

*edit*
no i misread your post....you are saying its better to be able to sell more fullstop..
even better lol

 

[FoxEye]

No, but I can see a repeated pattern of delusion, absolutism and GPU envy.

You got me. The whole reason for this thread is because I can't afford a 980ti. What other reason could there be? Oh well, I've been rumbled.

How about using your head? If you seriously believe game developing companies have 100% profit margins, you are deluded.

It's a waste of time. Apparently the cost of selling a game is nil, and every copy sold makes profit at any price.

This thread is futility personified. Threadified.

 

[Amnesia]

Look, another one £500+ nVidia GPU, that X99 Intel CPU is £700-£900 from what I can tell, and you're on the side of "games are too expensive".

Do I see a pattern emerging?

so if someone has expensive hardware they have no right to say games are expensive ?

 

[Uncle Petey]

You got me. The whole reason for this thread is because I can't afford a 980ti. What other reason could there be? Oh well, I've been rumbled.

See, there you go with the absolutist thing again.

As for people owning expensive hardware, it doesn't necessarily mean that they can spurge cash on whatever and whenever.
Maybe they got a good deal on their gear, maybe they saved up.

You presume too much.

 

[FoxEye]

So he says its better to make more sales at a cheaper price than less sales at a higher price.

and your argument is...its better to make more sales at a higher price ????
why would sales increase if you raised the price ?

You do understand that we're not just talking about a single economy here. We're talking about selling games in multiple countries, with vastly different economies, and that it's not as simple as X at Y price vs A at B price.

What you're asking me to disprove bears little resemblance to what's happening here.

I'll admit it's complicated. It's not just about supply and demand, it's partly about human psychology, market research (which I don't have), and hard numbers (which we also don't have). Jono said (and I agree with him, btw), neither side can prove their interpretation of the effect of the grey market, without the numbers.

I can't prove that the people buying on release at a 50% discount is not offset by the people buying on release who would otherwise pirate.

But what I think should be beyond argument, is that some people who would have bought on release for £35, are now getting a 50% discount that they didn't need to motivate their purchase.

Many people here, who have extremely expensive taste, would likely buy more games at £35, rather than waiting for a sale, if they didn't have the option of buying in the grey market.

 

[FML1990]

But it's funny how companies like nV and Intel can charge silly prices for top-end products, and nobody complains, or accuses them of fleecing?

Eg the Titan X being close to £1000, and people being happy to pay that, and expressing how happy they were with them, and how nV is their favourite GPU maker.

Yet if a game releases at £50 for the first month - nobody is forcing you to buy it then - we pile on the scorn for being "greedy".

It does seem weird to me that we hold software devs to such strict pricing standards, whilst giving Intel or nVidia thousands of pounds for grossly over-priced gear.

The 970 should have been the 960, the Titan should have been the 980, etc, etc... But nVidia invented a new price tier, and bumped all their range up by hundreds of pounds... and we applauded them for doing it!

Meanwhile a game can only cost £20 max or words like "greed" start being thrown around.

People do say they have priced them self stupidy. Its been mentioned numerous times on here, specifically the 980, and the skylake CPUs.

Considering I use my computer around 40 hours a week. 20 of which is to play games. I don't mind spending a lot on my parts as they will eventually plumet to the point where I've spent less than a quid per hour of gaming.

Where as, fallout, tombraider, MGS. All 40 quid on laumch, I've got them all and racked up 20,12,1 hour on each of them. I'll most likely never play any of them again. Should I of bought them all on steam for £120?

Why am I not allowed the right to look for the best deal. If these games were bought with fraudulant card details then they can revoke the keys I've purchased simple as that. But odds are they were purchased in bulk with the intention of selling them on.

 

[Amnesia]

I can't prove that the people buying on release at a 50% discount is not offset by the people buying on release who would otherwise pirate.

But what I think should be beyond argument, is that some people who would have bought on release for £35, are now getting a 50% discount that they didn't need to motivate their purchase.

Many people here, who have extremely expensive taste, would likely buy more games at £35, rather than waiting for a sale, if they didn't have the option of buying in the grey market.

well if you want to prove your point you can always go get some sales figures for the PC when games were that price and steam was in its infancy and cd key sites pretty much didnt exist.

was pc gaming in a better state 10 or so years ago or now ?

 

[Vonhelmet]

How about using your head? If you seriously believe game developing companies have 100% profit margins, you are deluded.

I don't, but that doesn't mean people using grey market sites make anything approaching a dent in that. You've also yet to show that they'd even suffer if everyone used them, never mind the fact that would never happen.

 

[Zethor]

I don't, but that doesn't mean people using grey market sites make anything approaching a dent in that. You've also yet to show that they'd even suffer if everyone used them, never mind the fact that would never happen.

I've already shown what would happen. Less than 100% profit margin => no profit when selling at 50% lower price.

 

[FrenchTart]

Look, another one £500+ nVidia GPU, that X99 Intel CPU is £700-£900 from what I can tell, and you're on the side of "games are too expensive".

Do I see a pattern emerging?

Does this logic work in reverse? I have a second-hand 290X I picked up for less than £150 and a really old Ivy Bridge CPU.

 

[Vonhelmet]

If you're talking about inflation, well, we're not talking about years here are we... a few months is all it takes to start seeing 25% off (or more).

Inflation, in part, also just plain old cash flow. I'd rather sell something now than in a year.

What would you call it? Do you deny that there are people who can't wait? Who have to have a game as soon as it's released? If not discipline (financial discipline is real you know), then what do you call it? Just plain old patience then? Makes little difference to me.

Some people won't wait, this is a fact. Those who do get their reward in the form of saving money. Quarrelling over the precise word you would use to describe the nature of their wait is beyond asinine.

Yes, financial discipline exists, but you're not talking about financial discipline. You're talking about making a moral decision not to buy something at a cheaper price and instead choosing to wait to buy it in the uk or whatever. It's like choosing not to buy from Amazon because you object to their business practises. That's fine, but it's a moral decision, not a matter of discipline.

A Merc or a BMW then. It's basically just saying that people have strange ideas of what represents good value. Some people will pay a lot of money for a car, moan endlessly about the state of the roads, and yet do all they can to avoid paying taxes. True or false?

True, maybe, but who cares? It's not unreasonable or even illegal to avoid paying tax. It's also not unreasonable to expect the government to keep the roads in decent shape. If the government can't keep the roads in good shape with the tax they're taking, they need to operate more efficiently or increase the tax rate.

 

[FrenchTart]

I've already shown what would happen. Less than 100% profit margin => no profit when selling at 50% lower price.

This is as simplistic and wrong as your earlier assertion. These statements you're coming out with are actually harming your argument rather than helping it you realise?

 

[Vonhelmet]

I've already shown what would happen. Less than 100% profit margin => no profit when selling at 50% lower price.

Ok, sure, the maths works, I'll give you that.

 

[FoxEye]

True, maybe, but who cares? It's not unreasonable or even illegal to avoid paying tax. It's also not unreasonable to expect the government to keep the roads in decent shape. If the government can't keep the roads in good shape with the tax they're taking, they need to operate more efficiently or increase the tax rate.

Yes, but here's the rub. If everybody avoided paying tax as these people do, how efficient would the govt need to be to maintain the roads with no income?

Essentially what you mean is that /other people/ should pay more tax. Those people I mentioned will avoid paying tax so long as they can. Whilst grumbling about the state of the roads (or other services).

It's not uncommon, and it's relevant because it's analogous to what's happening here.

 

[Jono8]

I can't believe Foxeye is now comparing PC hardware to a pc game.

One is a product that not only requires paying employees, R & D, development cost but also has a sizable actual manufacturing and material cost. Add that to the fact that you can quite easily sell your hardware in future they are nothing a like and it isn't even worth comparing the two. Especially as baring exchange rate conversions they will pretty much cost the same everywhere.

Even having all that said, yes Nvidia take the **** with the Titan as much as EA take the **** with their pre order special editions of games. I just buy neither..

 

[Vonhelmet]

Yes, but here's the rub. If everybody avoided paying tax as these people do, how efficient would the govt need to be to maintain the roads with no income?

Essentially what you mean is that /other people/ should pay more tax. Those people I mentioned will avoid paying tax so long as they can. Whilst grumbling about the state of the roads (or other services).

It's not uncommon, and it's relevant because it's analogous to what's happening here.

It's the government's business to sort out the tax code, not mine. If they can't collect tax, that's for them to fix. It's not up to me to pay tax I can avoid by, I don't know, using an ISA, making pension contributions, using the cycle to work scheme, you name it.

Oh, wait, you don't mean all tax avoidance, you mean tax avoidance by other people, right?

 

[Boycey0211]

Heres a question, where is Valve registered for tax purposes?

Genuinely interested as I can't find any info, was wondering if they use the Ireland trick to get out of paying tax like amazon et al do.

Found it, Luxemboug. A well known tax haven! Can't find out about uplay or origin though...

 

[FoxEye]

It's the government's business to sort out the tax code, not mine. If they can't collect tax, that's for them to fix. It's not up to me to pay tax I can avoid by, I don't know, using an ISA, making pension contributions, using the cycle to work scheme, you name it.

Oh, wait, you don't mean all tax avoidance, you mean tax avoidance by other people, right?

Nah, I'm not talking having an ISA or making pension contributions. I'm talking people who are very well paid, set up Personal Services Companies (PSCs), pay themselves min wage, and use their PSC to buy the stuff they need (also avoiding VAT).

And other tricks.

Imho, if you go out of your way to avoid paying tax like this, you forfeit your right to complain about the state of the roads, or the frequency of bin collections, etc.

Do you agree?

 

[Vonhelmet]

Doesn't mean anything. You'd need to see a hell of a lot more to conclude they were up to something by being headquartered in Luxembourg.

 

[Vonhelmet]

Nah, I'm not talking having an ISA or making pension contributions. I'm talking people who are very well paid, set up Personal Services Companies (PSCs), pay themselves min wage, and use their PSC to buy the stuff they need (also avoiding VAT).

That's tax evasion, which is illegal. I thought we were talking about tax avoidance, which is legal?

And other tricks.

Imho, if you go out of your way to avoid paying tax like this, you forfeit your right to complain about the state of the roads, or the frequency of bin collections, etc.

Do you agree?

No one is defending tax evasion, just the same as no one is defending piracy. It's reassuring, though, to see that your analogous arguments don't make sense either.