Steam prices! Grey key sites! and the I love/hate developers thread - Enter if you dare!

FoxEye · 7 Feb 2016 at 17:09

Vonhelmet said:
That's tax evasion, which is illegal. I thought we were talking about tax avoidance, which is legal?

No one is defending tax evasion, just the same as no one is defending piracy. It's reassuring, though, to see that your analogous arguments don't make sense either.

There are schemes out there that claim to be legal, and offer savings of up to 85% of your "normal" tax bill.

I can't tell you how they work, but there are people selling these kinds of tax saving services, and there are people making full use of them.

Yes, some are borderline illegal, but some claim to be 100% legal.

Again, if you avoid (not evade for the purposes of argument) as much tax as possible, do you not forfeit your right to complain about services paid for by tax? Yes or no?

Vonhelmet · 7 Feb 2016 at 17:13

If you're paying a legally defensible amount of tax and it's unpalatably low then the fault lies with the tax system.

CyberCrow · 7 Feb 2016 at 17:30

Lol why is the thread still going?

Fox has some good points but he's set in his view an the discussion can't go no further due it just going round in circle's.

Every thing that gets posted or replied to just gets a different anal comparison an sets off the motion of a circle again lol the whole thread is pointless and encourages trolling.

FoxEye · 7 Feb 2016 at 17:32

Vonhelmet said:
If you're paying a legally defensible amount of tax and it's unpalatably low then the fault lies with the tax system.

Is everything that's legal also morally defensible?

If you can legally screw someone over for your own advantage, should you always do it?

Vonhelmet · 7 Feb 2016 at 17:37

Who's talking about moral defensibility? Who made you judge, jury and executioner of what is moral?

Jono8 · 7 Feb 2016 at 17:38

Vonhelmet said:
Doesn't mean anything. You'd need to see a hell of a lot more to conclude they were up to something by being headquartered in Luxembourg.

Lol. Yes, they probably just thought Luxembourg looked pleasant and that was the only reason

FoxEye · 7 Feb 2016 at 17:39

Vonhelmet said:
Who's talking about moral defensibility? Who made you judge, jury and executioner of what is moral?

Nobody make me anything. But we all knew all along that grey market sellers were within the law.

So it's always been a question of "should I" rather than "can I". Right from the word "go".

You're acting like I've only just brought it into the argument.

Jono8 · 7 Feb 2016 at 17:42

FoxEye said:
Nobody make me anything. But we all knew all along that grey market sellers were within the law.

So it's always been a question of "should I" rather than "can I". Right from the word "go".

You're acting like I've only just brought it into the argument.

The answer is yes you should. It's a dog eat dog world out there

Vonhelmet · 7 Feb 2016 at 17:48

Jono8 said:
Lol. Yes, they probably just thought Luxembourg looked pleasant and that was the only reason

There's a lot of things to consider when incorporating. It's not all about tax

Vonhelmet · 7 Feb 2016 at 17:49

FoxEye said:
Nobody make me anything. But we all knew all along that grey market sellers were within the law.

So it's always been a question of "should I" rather than "can I". Right from the word "go".

You're acting like I've only just brought it into the argument.

And it seems most people don't care for your moral judgements.

FML1990 · 7 Feb 2016 at 17:52

Guessing OP doesn't use amazon?

GoogalyMoogaly · 7 Feb 2016 at 18:02

It just seems odd that we're expected to go out and pay the most expensive price we can find for a game to help a game studio and publisher that probably use every tax avoidance scheme in the book and any number of morally questionable business practices because otherwise we're morally wrong.

Why is it ok for the companies to save as much money as possible (maybe out source work to companies with cheaper wages) but we're not allowed to?

Jono8 · 7 Feb 2016 at 18:05

GoogalyMoogaly said:
It just seems odd that we're expected to go out and pay the most expensive price we can find for a game to help a game studio and publisher that probably use every tax avoidance scheme in the book and any number of morally questionable business practices because otherwise we're morally wrong.

Why is it ok for the companies to save as much money as possible (maybe out source work to companies with cheaper wages) but we're not allowed to?

That is what I have been probing this thread to find out.

So far I haven't had a decent answer.

Armadillo · 7 Feb 2016 at 18:07

This thread is amazing. From grey market keys to tax avoidance. This thread just keeps giving

FoxEye · 7 Feb 2016 at 18:08

Vonhelmet said:
And it seems most people don't care for your moral judgements.

You suggested that tax avoidance by anyone on any scale was defensible if proven legal.

Some people need the law to tell them what's acceptable and what isn't. And that's why legal "loopholes" keep being exploited, and keep needing to be closed.

I asked a general question: should legality be the only measure by which we judge our own actions? If you can legally screw someone else over for your own advantage, should you?

This whole thread from the start was about more than legality. It was about whether the grey market hurt developers, and whether we should use grey key sellers, exploiting pricing intended for other regions.

I'm also intrigued that many people still don't think piracy has a negative effect on the industry - at all. That many people deny it doesn't make the majority an authority, however. People often choose to believe that their actions have no consequences. It's human nature

Armadillo said:
This thread is amazing. From grey market keys to tax avoidance. This thread just keeps giving

I wish I had something better to do!

Vonhelmet · 7 Feb 2016 at 18:24

No, I said tax avoidance on any scale was defensible if proven legal. Do try to keep up.

FoxEye · 7 Feb 2016 at 18:26

Was a typo. Edited.

Vonhelmet · 7 Feb 2016 at 18:31

Ah, ok. So you are saying that totally legal things are immoral. Awesome.

FoxEye · 7 Feb 2016 at 18:34

Vonhelmet said:
Ah, ok. So you are saying that totally legal things are immoral. Awesome.

I'm saying they can be (but remember I'm not the judge

). Have you not encountered something that's completely legal but also shockingly immoral?

Do you want an example? I can give you a fair few.

FrenchTart · 7 Feb 2016 at 18:38

The real thing here is that you think something is immoral and most others (most others judging by the comments) don't think it is. Using examples of other things that people do often have an issue with doesn't magically make your point about grey market keys more valid.