Stirling Moss Bigotry

Sliver · 15 Apr 2013 at 12:00

I have the greatest respect for Stirling Moss with regard to his achievements as a racing driver. As a person though I'm starting to view him as an out of touch bigot.

Last night I watched a BBC documentary titled 'The fastest woman in the world' which told the story of a female driver called Susie Wollf. Susie is a truly inspirational character with a real talent for racing. In January this year she went for a test with Formula 1 team Williams where she surpassed everyone's expectations. She was give 10 laps to achieve a 52 second lap time and managed a best lap of 52.3 seconds. It's quite possible that Susie could end up with a seat on the grid in the future.

According to Stirling Moss however, women do not have the mental capacity to compete with men in F1.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...got-about-the-fastest-woman-in-the-world.html

Is it just me or is he a dinosaur who is out of touch with modern morality ? This isn't the only example of Stirling putting his foot in it recently. Remember the shameful comments about gays he made last month ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...gend-Sir-Stirling-Moss-83-homophobia-row.html

I used to admire this man, but I deplore bigotry in all it's forms and I now find him a complete embarrassment to the sport and to the UK. I think it would be better for everyone if he just kept his mouth shut and enjoyed his final years in private.

Nismo · 15 Apr 2013 at 12:10

Different era, different opinions. He's hardly unique.

I'm sure views I hold today which are acceptable might not be so in 50+ years time.

Goksly · 15 Apr 2013 at 12:20

Proof is in the pud... lets see how long it is before there is a female champ?

Duke · 15 Apr 2013 at 12:23

I was a little shocked when he mentioned the mental challenge rather than psysical which is what I was expecting.

Sliver · 15 Apr 2013 at 12:32

Nismo said:
Different era, different opinions. He's hardly unique.

I'm sure views I hold today which are acceptable might not be so in 50+ years time.

I understand what you are saying but it comes over like you are making an excuse for his comments. Am I right ? Do you agree with his remarks or were you just playing devils advocate ?

There is no excuse for using a persons gender or sexuality to treat them in a less equal fashion. People who do this are repulsive, ignorant and immoral. Yes, Stirling was from a different era, but he's had enough time to re-assess his values and beliefs as he as aged and grown in a society with an ever evolving moral zeitgeist. Sadly, he hasn't done this.

Nismo · 15 Apr 2013 at 12:44

I'm just saying generally for people of his generation, that's how the world is (still) viewed. It's hard to change your views when it's been "that way" for so much of your life.

Personally I think there are women who could do it, given a chance. If a female youngster started karting and was put into a development programme focused around the aim of getting into F1 like so many of today's drivers, there's no reason at all they couldn't succeed (unless of course Moss is actually correct, and there is some kind of mental barrier related to gender).

freebooter · 15 Apr 2013 at 12:50

Sliver said:
bigot.

The currently most overused word by the media brain washed.

As usual it is now ok to say that women are better than men at some things or in some situations but not the other way round.

If you look at car accidents and insurance rates you will see that young men are far more likely to have accidents than young women. Psychological studies show that young men are more likely to take physical risks and be super competitive. Those traits cause lots of accidents on the road but also make good racing drivers. Also whether inherently or by social conditioning boys are still more likely to be drawn to cars and mechanical things.

On the other hand you are talking about the extreme end of populations and I am sure there are women who could compete in F1 as the physical demands are not that high in terms of muscle bulk and strength. I can never remember her name but there was a women (French, I think or maybe Italian) who was genuinely competitive at the height of the rallying craze. I think that was probably more physically demanding and certainly riskier than modern F1.

It is just a numbers game. It would be interesting to know how many girls get involved in karting when young as that is where all the male F1 drivers start. I suspect that all opportunities being equal and all drivers getting selected by merit only you would still get more male drivers than female but not exclusively.

Of course one advantage women have is that if they are good looking they could marry their way into an F1 seat.....

Sliver · 15 Apr 2013 at 12:52

Nismo said:
I'm just saying generally for people of his generation, that's how the world is (still) viewed. It's hard to change your views when it's been "that way" for so much of your life.

Personally I think there are women who could do it, given a chance. If a female youngster started karting and was put into a development programme focused around the aim of getting into F1 like so many of today's drivers, there's no reason at all they couldn't succeed (unless of course Moss is actually correct, and there is some kind of mental barrier related to gender).

Yeah that's fine. I think being given the chance is hugely important. I have no doubts that women like Susie are capable of competing with men but they have such an up hill struggle to try and break through in a male dominated sport like F1. Women like Susie seem to need to try twice as hard as their male counterparts in order to prove themselves.

Vonhelmet · 15 Apr 2013 at 12:58

Duke said:
I was a little shocked when he mentioned the mental challenge rather than psysical which is what I was expecting.

It's not outside the bounds of possibility that men's brains are better wired for F1 driving. If men are able to process certain types of information - how much grip the car has, how fast another object is moving, how fast they are approaching something - then they will be better.

However, without science to prove that, it's tricky to say anything about it without being labelled a bigot or as politically incorrect.

Equally, it's over the top political correctness to pretend that women and men are equal in all capacities, when we know they are not.

El_Watcher · 15 Apr 2013 at 13:02

Nismo said:
(unless of course Moss is actually correct, and there is some kind of mental barrier related to gender).

He is correct in that there is a mental barrier related to gender, but it is not one that the female drivers suffer, it is one that everyone else involved does.

Anyone who watches Nascar will have seen Danica Patrick. She has shown that she can be as competitive as most of the other drivers, but on the tracks where bump drafting is crucial, none of the male drivers will join Danica in bump drafting, and she is then left alone and drops back.
It has been said that it is because the other drivers don't trust her, but this is ridiculous as she has shown herself to be no more or less prone to causing accidents than anyone else.

FrankJH · 15 Apr 2013 at 13:13

Goksly said:
Proof is in the pud... lets see how long it is before there is a female champ?

That isn't the point (after all there are 100's of male drivers who have never/will never become champ, they still held their own on the grid for years as a decent enough driver)

Vonhelmet said:
It's not outside the bounds of possibility that men's brains are better wired for F1 driving.

I highly doubt its anything to do with the sex of the person. All the things you mentioned can be trained as long as they have the skill to start with (as mentioned previously, preferably from a very early age in karting)

Men and women may not be exactly equal in all respects, but then there are many things that a woman may be able to do better in F1 context (for one thing, potentially weigh a lot less than a man for example and therefore allow the designers to play around with the additional weight - which I understand is (maybe was) beneficial).

For all we know there could be inherent benefits to being a woman in F1 that no-one even knows about. Its all about knowing what they are and balancing out what they are better /worse at. Without knowing for sure its impossible ot be fair.

I don't think SM is a bigot, by any means, but he is .....out of date.

GravyMonster · 15 Apr 2013 at 13:17

Sliver said:
Women like Susie seem to need to try twice as hard as their male counterparts in order to prove themselves.

Personally I don't believe that is the case. There just simply isn't the level of female driving talent than there is male. In Stoddart's case, her years of DTM proved that she's not quite up the task.

I'd imagine that any half-decent woman driver would be snapped up by a racing team simply to get the massive associated PR. Look at the attention Williams have received from just having a female test driver. There was a similar case for de Villota at Virgin/Marussia - even before her accident.

Burnsy2023 · 15 Apr 2013 at 13:32

Moses said:
What did he actually say? It's not necessarily ridiculous, given there are differences between men and women, and to be at the peak of the sport you pretty much can't have any (relative) weaknesses.

Eg. I remember it being said how men and women differ when it comes to spatial awareness - men being better. If that is the case, I'd imagine the best men are better than the best women, when it comes to that.

That is very much a generalisation though. In general, men can't be racing drivers. It's a difficult sport and requires both mental and physical fitness.

If most men can't do it, why can't some women? It stands to reason that there are a women, who can be just as good as men. The only big hurdle they have is the sexism in the sport to contend with.

dannyjo22 · 15 Apr 2013 at 13:40

Watch Danica Patrick. Enough said, Moss is right

You only have to go to an old peoples home and hear some of the old people use casual racism and sexism in a Alf Garnett way. Different generation, where that sort of thing was acceptable and when they get older the guard slips and the words come out.

Janesy B · 15 Apr 2013 at 13:41

Go away with your tabloid over exaggerations. What he has said is hardly offensive and you have to understand he's from a totally different upbringing to you and I.

Sliver said:
Last night I watched a BBC documentary titled 'The fastest woman in the world' which told the story of a female driver called Susie Wollf. Susie is a truly inspirational character with a real talent for racing. In January this year she went for a test with Formula 1 team Williams where she surpassed everyone's expectations. She was give 10 laps to achieve a 52 second lap time and managed a best lap of 52.3 seconds. It's quite possible that Susie could end up with a seat on the grid in the future.

You've been brainwashed by a biased documentary about a mediocre driver who spent most of the time towards the back end of the grid in DTM and forbidden to do Le Mans by her husband Toto. The only reason she's at Williams is because her husband is a shareholder. Hardly the fastest woman in the world, I'm guessing the film title had something to do with the fact her brother directed it. If you look at the opportunity she has had, she should be doing MUCH better is she was truly talented.

freebooter · 15 Apr 2013 at 13:59

Burnsy2023 said:
The only big hurdle they have is the sexism in the sport to contend with.

Are there girls starting in karting who go on to win multiple races, come top of their age group but are then blocked by sexism and seats in higher series given to male drivers who aren't as good? I doubt it tbh. As has been said the pr value to teams of getting a competitive female driver would be huge.

freebooter · 15 Apr 2013 at 14:00

Moses said:
Female sprinters would dominate me,

I am sure there are websites for that

Sliver · 15 Apr 2013 at 15:07

Janesy B said:
Go away with your tabloid over exaggerations. What he has said is hardly offensive and you have to understand he's from a totally different upbringing to you and I.

You've been brainwashed by a biased documentary about a mediocre driver who spent most of the time towards the back end of the grid in DTM and forbidden to do Le Mans by her husband Toto. The only reason she's at Williams is because her husband is a shareholder. Hardly the fastest woman in the world, I'm guessing the film title had something to do with the fact her brother directed it. If you look at the opportunity she has had, she should be doing MUCH better is she was truly talented.

Utter rubbish. How dare you tell me what he said is hardly offensive. Who the hell are you to tell me what I find offensive? Also don't tell me to go away. This is an open forum and I'm free to post my views just like anyone else.

I welcome different views from mine but I don't have time for cretins who make silly assumptions about brainwashing and dismiss my point of view by telling me to 'go away'. Either present a well reasoned argument why you think Moss is not a bigot or vise versa but don't bother with your ad hominum rhetoric.

Janesy B · 15 Apr 2013 at 17:28

I wasn't actually telling you to go away, don't take it so literally. I should have realised how sensitive you were from your opening post.

You clearly don't welcome opinions and you can't even reply without resorting to personal insults. I can tell you it's hardly offensive because THAT'S MY OPINION and I WAS NOT offended by the comments because I have the sense to realise he was brought up into a different world than you and I. This clearly falls into the category of 'silly old man making a silly comment' and nothing more, there's no malice in it.

I still stand by the brainwashed comments, your post looks something straight out of a BBC synopsis. She's not talented or inspirational in the slightest, she's just another mediocre racing driver to me regardless of sex.

Indy500 · 15 Apr 2013 at 17:35

Virtually all of the previous female F1 drivers (Desiree Wilson and Lella Lombardi being two talented examples) were given sub-par equipment, in large part due to discrimination, so I don't think any definitive statement can be made about women in F1 at this point. Even then Lombardi finished in the points in the very dangerous 1970s era, and Wilson won a non-championship race in F1-equivalent equipment.