Summer Transfer Window 2017/18 - Rumours & Signings

fez said:
Not that many. How many teams hold onto super promising players for years without them getting really regular first team football. If you are are top young player you won't be happy playing bit parts in a handful of games in a season. Teams like Bayern and Barca can play their youngsters a bit more because half the games in a season are completely pointless and they could probably win them with their reserves. The PL is another matter. Stick a team of reserves out against any team in the PL and they will probably get beaten. The top teams have a first XI full of star players so you are either playing because you are good enough already, the game is already won or someone is injured.

My main issue with people giving Mourinho stick is that apparently he is the only one who does any of these things. All the stats point to the fact that Mourinho isn't as bad as pretty much any of the other top managers with regards to these issues and yet he is the one who is always pinned up as the example.
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And that's the issue, he won't develop a player. If they're no use to him today then they get binned off. Mourinho's focus is on the 1, 2, 3 years he's at a club, beyond that counts for **** to him.

The stats show nothing other than Mourinho inherited a fairly young side and played 1 particularly young player that was already established in the first team squad prior to him arriving - the stats don't show that he was played out of position for most of those game though. Again, how often has Mourinho actually brought through a young promising player and turned him into a first team player? I'm struggling to think of any. How many have Klopp, Guardiola, Poch or Wenger brought through (I can't comment on Conte)? It's far easier to think of examples of them doing so. And the reverse, how many incredibly talented youngsters have these managers binned off compared to Mourinho? If selling Shaw or Martial allowed Mourinho to get somebody in that he believed would do a better job in the short-term do you believe he'd think twice about letting them go? Whether that's the right or wrong decision depends on the objectives of the club (see below).

I don't see what I say about Mourinho as being a criticism and I've often been defensive of him from other posters on here. It's a description of the manager he is. Certain managers build sides and entire clubs. Other managers are short-term managers brought in for short-term results. Mourinho's record shows that he's the best of his type of manager (a short-term/quick fix/cheque book manager) about but there are consequences of him and his style. Utd were well aware of this which is why it took as long as it did for them to offer him the job - if you don't remember, Mourinho practically stood in the middle of the OT pitch, dropped his pants, bent over and begged for it when he was the Real manager and Utd went for Moyes instead. After 3 poor years Utd decided that they had to concentrate on the short-term and why they went for Mourinho.
 
He hasn't been anywhere long enough, to say he doesn't care about youth when he's a teacher at heart, he qualified as that, surrounded by it from a young age as well, his mother was a teacher i think, it's probably not fair. If he was at UTD 10 years, i'm sure the youth setup will be looked after. You don't win anything with kids at the end of the day.
 
BaZ87 said:
And that's the issue, he won't develop a player. If they're no use to him today then they get binned off. Mourinho's focus is on the 1, 2, 3 years he's at a club, beyond that counts for **** to him.

The stats show nothing other than Mourinho inherited a fairly young side and played 1 particularly young player that was already established in the first team squad prior to him arriving - the stats don't show that he was played out of position for most of those game though. Again, how often has Mourinho actually brought through a young promising player and turned him into a first team player? I'm struggling to think of any. How many have Klopp, Guardiola, Poch or Wenger brought through (I can't comment on Conte)? It's far easier to think of examples of them doing so. And the reverse, how many incredibly talented youngsters have these managers binned off compared to Mourinho? If selling Shaw or Martial allowed Mourinho to get somebody in that he believed would do a better job in the short-term do you believe he'd think twice about letting them go? Whether that's the right or wrong decision depends on the objectives of the club (see below).

I don't see what I say about Mourinho as being a criticism and I've often been defensive of him from other posters on here. It's a description of the manager he is. Certain managers build sides and entire clubs. Other managers are short-term managers brought in for short-term results. Mourinho's record shows that he's the best of his type of manager (a short-term/quick fix/cheque book manager) about but there are consequences of him and his style. Utd were well aware of this which is why it took as long as it did for them to offer him the job - if you don't remember, Mourinho practically stood in the middle of the OT pitch, dropped his pants, bent over and begged for it when he was the Real manager and Utd went for Moyes instead. After 3 poor years Utd decided that they had to concentrate on the short-term and why they went for Mourinho.
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But once again Mourinho has been managing at clubs where only a short term view is acceptable and thats the difference between his situation and the likes of Klopp and Pochettino whom you use as examples of managers who develop young players. Southampton and Spurs is a very different environment to Chelsea and Real Madrid. Do you think either of those clubs would afford Pochettino or Klopp a few years to develop a team or bring through young players for the greater good down the line? Or would they sack you after one season because you didn't win (or even sack you when you DID win!).

You quote Shaw and Martial but in todays environment they are two players that people are saying aren't good enough and need replacing, that isn't just a Mourinho view its increasing becoming a football view for every big club every summer. Who is underperforming in the team/squad? Thats who needs replacing. At the top clubs there is little thought for the long term and at the risk of showing my age I notice that with young fans there is an increasing expectation to buy the best and to spend more as an illustration of ambition and strength rather than buying potential or building organically.

As a Man Utd fan it makes me sad a bit that we are now just like City or Chelsea in that we just use money to try and get where we need to be. I know we always spent big of course but there was a certain kudos to be had in winning league titles with players who weren't all the best, big money signings and having O'Shea and Evans lifting trophies while better more expensive players looked on at other clubs. Its just a different world now.
 
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But once again Mourinho has been managing at clubs where only a short term view is acceptable and thats the difference between his situation and the likes of Klopp and Pochettino whom you use as examples of managers who develop young players. Southampton and Spurs is a very different environment to Chelsea and Real Madrid. Do you think either of those clubs would afford Pochettino or Klopp a few years to develop a team or bring through young players for the greater good down the line? Or would they sack you after one season because you didn't win (or even sack you when you DID win!).

You quote Shaw and Martial but in todays environment they are two players that people are saying aren't good enough and need replacing, that isn't just a Mourinho view its increasing becoming a football view for every big club every summer. Who is underperforming in the team/squad? Thats who needs replacing. At the top clubs there is little thought for the long term and at the risk of showing my age I notice that with young fans there is an increasing expectation to buy the best and to spend more as an illustration of ambition and strength rather than buying potential or building organically.

As a Man Utd fan it makes me sad a bit that we are now just like City or Chelsea in that we just use money to try and get where we need to be. I know we always spent big of course but there was a certain kudos to be had in winning league titles with players who weren't all the best, big money signings and having O'Shea and Evans lifting trophies while better more expensive players looked on at other clubs. Its just a different world now.
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You keep implying that bringing through youth means developing an entire team, and that it is strictly one or the other, you either make the team work now or if you develop players, you give up on the current year and are building for 3 years down the line. That entire premise is utter bull. If Mourinho had used KDB, after 2-3 games his team would have been stronger for that current season. He left and after 3-4 games in a row for Wolfsburg he became player of the season in the league deservedly.

Zidane has had more success in 18 months than Mourinho had in his 3 years there, far far more success and in it he had no problem rotating his first team, resting large numbers of players against weaker teams and giving players like Asensio who really was in exactly the same situation as KDB(a few seasons with games at other clubs, brought in as a decent player with huge potential) but was given time where Mourinho refused to place any trust in KDB at all. Zidane is both winning everything right now AND by resting players and giving the squad more games he is protecting his first team so they can play better in the same season because they are less burned out. He's preventing them being burned out from one season to the next, he's keeping squad players in form and he's giving younger players a chance to come through.

It's simply absurd to suggest that it's a binary choice, build for now or for the future. The best managers, like Fergie, had absolutely no problem with rotation and giving youngsters games. A great manager can do both, a meh manager goes only for the short term, thinks absolutely nothing about tomorrow and.... gets fired after two years when the first team is burned out and playing like crap, the non first team hasn't played for 2 years and so suck and/or left and there is no young players coming through as none got used for the previous couple of years.

Chelsea and Real aren't at all only about this year, they are about dominating, they are about winning the biggest cups, they want to win cups every single year. If you win a cup but fall flat on your face the next season that is when you get fired. A manager who doesn't think about how the squad can perform year after year, gets fired. A manager who can't keep a squad competitive after 2 years, gets fired.


The team Mourinho had at Real was insane, the club spent what about 300mil in two summers buying up the best players around, Ronaldo included and he only managed one league title and the third year Real dropped off massively... then he got fired. Did they fire him after the first year of not winning anything, nope, did Chelsea fire him after his first season not winning anything (second time around) nope, they fired him when he couldn't sustain the team into a third year of competitiveness both times around. Both times the clubs gave him a season without winning to grow the team, in neither case did the club obviously fire a manager for failing in the first year. IT was the lack of sustained fight in the squad that caused him to be fired both times, not lack of instant success.
 
drunkenmaster said:
You keep implying that bringing through youth means developing an entire team, and that it is strictly one or the other, you either make the team work now or if you develop players, you give up on the current year and are building for 3 years down the line. That entire premise is utter bull. If Mourinho had used KDB, after 2-3 games his team would have been stronger for that current season. He left and after 3-4 games in a row for Wolfsburg he became player of the season in the league deservedly.

Zidane has had more success in 18 months than Mourinho had in his 3 years there, far far more success and in it he had no problem rotating his first team, resting large numbers of players against weaker teams and giving players like Asensio who really was in exactly the same situation as KDB(a few seasons with games at other clubs, brought in as a decent player with huge potential) but was given time where Mourinho refused to place any trust in KDB at all. Zidane is both winning everything right now AND by resting players and giving the squad more games he is protecting his first team so they can play better in the same season because they are less burned out. He's preventing them being burned out from one season to the next, he's keeping squad players in form and he's giving younger players a chance to come through.

It's simply absurd to suggest that it's a binary choice, build for now or for the future. The best managers, like Fergie, had absolutely no problem with rotation and giving youngsters games. A great manager can do both, a meh manager goes only for the short term, thinks absolutely nothing about tomorrow and.... gets fired after two years when the first team is burned out and playing like crap, the non first team hasn't played for 2 years and so suck and/or left and there is no young players coming through as none got used for the previous couple of years.

Chelsea and Real aren't at all only about this year, they are about dominating, they are about winning the biggest cups, they want to win cups every single year. If you win a cup but fall flat on your face the next season that is when you get fired. A manager who doesn't think about how the squad can perform year after year, gets fired. A manager who can't keep a squad competitive after 2 years, gets fired.


The team Mourinho had at Real was insane, the club spent what about 300mil in two summers buying up the best players around, Ronaldo included and he only managed one league title and the third year Real dropped off massively... then he got fired. Did they fire him after the first year of not winning anything, nope, did Chelsea fire him after his first season not winning anything (second time around) nope, they fired him when he couldn't sustain the team into a third year of competitiveness both times around. Both times the clubs gave him a season without winning to grow the team, in neither case did the club obviously fire a manager for failing in the first year. IT was the lack of sustained fight in the squad that caused him to be fired both times, not lack of instant success.
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I didn't say its a binary choice but its relevant whether you like it or not. Managers at top clubs (the very top clubs) don't tend to get time to gel players, bring players through or frankly worry about the youth. Sometimes it happens and it works straight away but when you are a manager appointed to work under the pressure that these clubs bring then instant success is largely expected whether you are Mourinho or anyone else. This isn't about whether you think Mourinho is a good manager or not or whether he has made mistakes along the way, Im simply replying to the idea that he is only interested in "the here and now" which was the quote I think. Managers at these clubs can only afford to be interested in the here and now because plans for long term success will see you fired for short term failure. Chelsea are loaning out players left right and centre rather than playing them themselves, there is a reason for that. The Class of 92 wouldn't come through in a bunch today because it wouldn't be accepted by fans or clubs. Ferguson was under incredible pressure when he didn't buy that summer and that was a man with the recent record he had then, imagine it today? We are sitting in June and people are complaining about their clubs lack of transfer activity! Ferguson in the end could virtually pick who he wanted because he had the trust of the fans and the club but even he was far from beyond criticism and there were a couple of times when he was building teams that he was under scrutiny for team selections and signings. I still see people blame him for the Moyes debacle on the basis that he left a crap squad despite said squad being champions and Moyes being handed a blank cheque.
 
Mark1989 said:
I thought this was a transfer thread not mourinho :/
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Indeed, getting quite boring with talk of Mourinho.

Back to transfer, seems like Lacazette is off the table lol. Lyon president saying he expects him to stay put.

Ahhh gotta love the ITK's and the crap they spout off regarding certain players.

Now just waiting to hear when Benzema will be linked with Arsenal :p
 
Mark1989 said:
I thought this was a transfer thread not mourinho :/
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I dont understand how this forum is meant to work when any conversation is shut down if it organically strays off the headline topic. There are a pile of rules attached to the club threads that make any form of discussion virtually impossible from what I can see and if a transfer discussion leads to discussing how the manger operates that gets jumped on too because its in a transfer thread. Not sure how these discussions are meant to take place really. oh well.
 
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