I blame the parents.
Supplements the debate/discussion thread
- Thread starter Freefaller
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I blame the parents.
Soldato
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Sorry didn't mean to preach I was talking about me not you, if you want to eat meat I also don't give a toss and I won't judge you on it, though that's kinda hard for me not to since you are going against my moral value of killing and eating animals is wrong.
But end of the day you don't judge me for what I eat so I won't you as it's your choice. It matters that people are open minded, I can even laugh about a meat jokes as my friends are meat eaters and they are open minded about me being vegan, there's no need to judge or be preachy.
Anyways that's just why I chose hemp protein and not whey. And Zefan is an alien.
*Preachy vegans? Well, if you support it you deserve to ******* hear/see it.
But end of the day you don't judge me for what I eat so I won't you as it's your choice. It matters that people are open minded, I can even laugh about a meat jokes as my friends are meat eaters and they are open minded about me being vegan, there's no need to judge or be preachy.
Anyways that's just why I chose hemp protein and not whey. And Zefan is an alien.
*Preachy vegans? Well, if you support it you deserve to ******* hear/see it.
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the irony of my post is you - being a vegan - are one of the very few people who may benefit directly from protein supplementation because it is nigh on impossible for you guys to get an appropriate and balanced diet because you don't eat meat or anything derived from animals.
Vegan proteins are alright in the grand scheme of things because they are sources of amino acids, yes; however, the bioavailability of those aminos is reduced because of of the way stuff that isn't derived from animals structures its proteins. This is similar to the way in which spinach and oranges, wtc. Have lots of purpored iron in them, but the body can't use them because they're complexed up in plant-y compounds. Which in the case of protein just means you have to consume more. Or in the case of iron, just eat meat (plant sources of iron are nigh on impossible for the human body to do anything with...).
Soldato
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LOL What do you mean the body can't use them? Plant sources are impossible for humans to get nutrition from? Hahahaha completely unfounded. Your meat argument pales in comparison to getting enough plant food. Nevermind the meat, worry about eating enough plants, it might help you in the long run 
225g grilled rump steak contains about 4.1mg iron. 200g baked beans in tomato sauce contains 2.8mg. A30g bowl of branflakes contains 6mg. An 80g serving of spinach contains 1.4mg. 3 tablespoons of garden peas also contains 1.4mg.
I don't just eat spinach to get iron. Spinach is just one iron-rich food. Get a good variety of different foods and you'll get plenty of iron.
225g grilled rump steak contains about 4.1mg iron. 200g baked beans in tomato sauce contains 2.8mg. A30g bowl of branflakes contains 6mg. An 80g serving of spinach contains 1.4mg. 3 tablespoons of garden peas also contains 1.4mg.
I don't just eat spinach to get iron. Spinach is just one iron-rich food. Get a good variety of different foods and you'll get plenty of iron.
Soldato
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LMFAO
LOL What do you mean the body can't use them? Plant sources are impossible for humans to get nutrition from? Hahahaha completely unfounded. Your meat argument pales in comparison to getting enough plant food. Nevermind the meat, worry about eating enough plants, it might help you in the long run
225g grilled rump steak contains about 4.1mg iron. 200g baked beans in tomato sauce contains 2.8mg. A30g bowl of branflakes contains 6mg. An 80g serving of spinach contains 1.4mg. 3 tablespoons of garden peas also contains 1.4mg.
I don't just eat spinach to get iron. Spinach is just one iron-rich food. Get a good variety of different foods and you'll get plenty of iron.
I never said 'impossible' outright (or discussed beans, their carb content, and PITA preparation) but thanks for letting me know your perspective on the subject and your willingness to discuss things.
Google "oxalates" for the reason leafy green veg and a number of other vegan nutrient sources (nuts for instance) are not great sources of Ron for the human body.
I suppose I should have learned from your post on creatine, but my thought you would be somebody open to discussion on these things appears sadly misplaced.
All the more ironic in that I admire your adherence to veganism and will to get strong and massive on what is a significant handicap.
Soldato
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I thought that was just more lifter speak, like mirin, hench, brah etc.
Soldato
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Yeah ok so it's not impossible we can agree on that. Hey I'm willing to discuss this, I've just been reading about these oxalates you are teaching me about. Why are vegan sources like you listed not a good source of iron apart from the fact some of them are high in oxalates? Are you telling me the iron is too inferior than that of meat. Another thing I don't understand, if meat is a better source of iron how is that possible when the animal itself was eating plants to begin with. They digest it and store it better, effectively turning plants into something you are saying they are not?
Forget the creatine thing, I know what you mean.
Okay so I googled these oxalates and I'm having a hard time deciding if I'm meant to even worry about this. Is this just something people who suffer from kidney stones need to worry about? I've even read contradicting infomation even with a Dr recommending a vegan diet to an oxalate sufferer. Maybe he's nuts.
I read this http://foodandhealth.com/cpecourses/kidney.php#_Toc5424695
It told me what it is but never answered it's own question if it should be reduced. I read about people needing to reduce oxalates but nothing about a healthy person concerning oxalates.
Some people can't eat certains things due to health issues, even eating meat can causes kidney stones.
So should I actually be worried about this? I still think a vegan diet is healthy and if I do suffer from oxalates I'll have to cut back certain foods. But I can say that about any diet, no diet is perfect. Some people cut back on eating red meat because of heart risks etc.
Significant handicap? So what about undefeated boxer Timothy Bradley, Jr? He is significantly handicapped but undefeated?
I'm getting there, 7 months in the gym and I've made some gains in strength and weight. If you saw the photo of me I posted in the photos thread that was in late March, I've gotten bigger since then. Maybe you're right and my efforts will be in vain, it's hard enough getting big when you're tall and lanky but if I come back and I'm looking like a 6'4" Dolph Lundgren then I hope people will take me more seriously.
Forget the creatine thing, I know what you mean.
Okay so I googled these oxalates and I'm having a hard time deciding if I'm meant to even worry about this. Is this just something people who suffer from kidney stones need to worry about? I've even read contradicting infomation even with a Dr recommending a vegan diet to an oxalate sufferer. Maybe he's nuts.
I read this http://foodandhealth.com/cpecourses/kidney.php#_Toc5424695
It told me what it is but never answered it's own question if it should be reduced. I read about people needing to reduce oxalates but nothing about a healthy person concerning oxalates.
Some people can't eat certains things due to health issues, even eating meat can causes kidney stones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_stone#Dietary_measures
So should I actually be worried about this? I still think a vegan diet is healthy and if I do suffer from oxalates I'll have to cut back certain foods. But I can say that about any diet, no diet is perfect. Some people cut back on eating red meat because of heart risks etc.
Significant handicap? So what about undefeated boxer Timothy Bradley, Jr? He is significantly handicapped but undefeated?
I'm getting there, 7 months in the gym and I've made some gains in strength and weight. If you saw the photo of me I posted in the photos thread that was in late March, I've gotten bigger since then. Maybe you're right and my efforts will be in vain, it's hard enough getting big when you're tall and lanky but if I come back and I'm looking like a 6'4" Dolph Lundgren then I hope people will take me more seriously.
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That's cool - I am of the opinion that reasons why are far more interesting than reasons why not. 
No - oxalates are the reason iron is a PITA for the body to extract from a lot of vegetarian food sources.
Back to my original point: a vegan diet (much like any other) can be healthy given the right balance of nutrition. The reason why vegans and vegetarians suffer in the power/speed/strength sporting arena is because it is so very difficult to get that balance right. It is not impossible, but it is just easier with the full range of food sources.
The actual point was supporting this regarding your choice of protein: pea/hemp/rice protein are all fine sources of protein, but the body cannot digest their complexes as readily as it can whey, red meat or... Err... White meat. This simply means the vegan/veggie has to eat more of it. We're not talking double or triple, but probably more like 20% more on an equivalent intake basis.
In the same vein, having a bulk on vegan food sources is perfectly possible, but it just takes a bit more consideration to ensure the right balance of nutrition.
To me, this is highlighted by the bizarre - and quire amusing - effect of creatine on vegetarians and vegans. Not only do they et stronger, but their brains start working better (in specific tests). This - to me - is why I would never consider vegetarianism, let alone veganism, simply because something as dull (and frowned upon in the general public) as creatine can have such a profound effect where it is missing from a meaty diet. What else has a similarly pronounced (yet perhaps different) effect when reintroduced from a vegan/veggie perspective?
That's a weak argument to some, and fair play. I personally would not do it because I like the taste of meat. Would I still eat meat if I knew how it got from the field to the fork? Pass me the shotgun... Does this mean I think veggies and beans are nuts? Absolutely. But everybody is entitled to succeed at their own game. So stick at it and we will help you!
No - oxalates are the reason iron is a PITA for the body to extract from a lot of vegetarian food sources.
Back to my original point: a vegan diet (much like any other) can be healthy given the right balance of nutrition. The reason why vegans and vegetarians suffer in the power/speed/strength sporting arena is because it is so very difficult to get that balance right. It is not impossible, but it is just easier with the full range of food sources.
The actual point was supporting this regarding your choice of protein: pea/hemp/rice protein are all fine sources of protein, but the body cannot digest their complexes as readily as it can whey, red meat or... Err... White meat. This simply means the vegan/veggie has to eat more of it. We're not talking double or triple, but probably more like 20% more on an equivalent intake basis.
In the same vein, having a bulk on vegan food sources is perfectly possible, but it just takes a bit more consideration to ensure the right balance of nutrition.
To me, this is highlighted by the bizarre - and quire amusing - effect of creatine on vegetarians and vegans. Not only do they et stronger, but their brains start working better (in specific tests). This - to me - is why I would never consider vegetarianism, let alone veganism, simply because something as dull (and frowned upon in the general public) as creatine can have such a profound effect where it is missing from a meaty diet. What else has a similarly pronounced (yet perhaps different) effect when reintroduced from a vegan/veggie perspective?
That's a weak argument to some, and fair play. I personally would not do it because I like the taste of meat. Would I still eat meat if I knew how it got from the field to the fork? Pass me the shotgun... Does this mean I think veggies and beans are nuts? Absolutely.
But everybody is entitled to succeed at their own game. So stick at it and we will help you!
Soldato
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Seems like I've been researching oxalates nearly all day today. An interesting article from a person suffering from autoimmune disease.
http://empoweredsustenance.com/oxalates-the-grain-free-diet-trap/
Looks like if you have kidney stone problems or a leaky gut you should be concerned. I have a healthy digestive system so I don't need to worry about oxalates preventing me from absorbing iron. I hope so anyways.
I do agree that is harder to get the balance right. The government tells us to eat healthier but all the healthy food is expensive. I've seen my farmers organic meat prices and even if I wanted to eat meat I couldn't afford it (I'd only eat quality meat).
Saying that though when I first decided to go Vegan I felt like I was going to be living off sweets and carrots. It's taken me a long time but I think I'm finally getting it right now. I look back at my old shopping lists and think what was I thinking! When I wasn't a vegan I didn't put much thought into what I chose to eat. But now I'm forced to research and learn about my diet so it's really helped me understand foods more and get better at cooking.
Actually I chose the hemp protein because I read so much that it's easier to digest and absorb than whey. One reason being whey protein is completely "dead", in that it has no live enzymes present to digest it. Whereas hemp does. Also lactose in whey means the body has to filter that out too.
This is the opposite of what you said
So who am I to believe? I hate all the contradictory information out there, it's the same with working out. Everyone has a different idea of how to do it, sometimes it hurts my head with all the science.
Bulking on a vegan diet, sounds funny doesn't it. I'm eating avocados, nuts and peanut butter and my friend was poking my belly the other day laughing at my little "food baby". So it is possible.
I agree about the creatine thing, that is a very good question. Why do I respond so well to something that is missing from my diet? Well maybe it is a placebo but I agree with this comment from the test that I read about.
Besides the body makes it's own creatine and where are the animals getting it from to give it you in their meat? I do agree though it's a question I need to explore more.
Going from meat eater to vegetarian had a very good effect on the way I felt. Cutting dairy out an even greater effect. I didn't feel sluggish or tired anymore. I used to suffer from insomnia, get aches, short concentration, bloat and gas.
Just gonna throw this in about dairy, I'm not preaching I'm just linking to this because it's one reason why I don't eat dairy and I think of it as teaching not preaching. Though I'm sure you can come back at me with a link supporting dairy so I'm not gonna judge. I think the reason most vegans have "loud voices" is because they know the animals can't speak out for themselves. http://drhyman.com/blog/2010/06/24/dairy-6-reasons-you-should-avoid-it-at-all-costs-2/#close
Honestly going from vegetarian to vegan had a much greater impact than taking some creatine did.
Fair play if you like the taste of meat, as many lions do! I can see you hunting dem zebras yo.
Hey I would much prefer you using a shotgun to get your meat. It's the big companies running around, ******* the environment, artificially inseminating creatures, mass producing, and keeping animals that I have a problem with.
Thanks for the help and I hope I can also help others too once I gain more experience and knowledge. Maybe there will be a vegan on here who I can give advice to once I get hoooj and he'll be inspired.
Also your earlier post
Thanks for not judging me as preaching but seeing it as passion in how I feel about animals, even though you have a different approach to me you still respect my convictions and commitment. Massive respect to you for that.
http://empoweredsustenance.com/oxalates-the-grain-free-diet-trap/
Looks like if you have kidney stone problems or a leaky gut you should be concerned. I have a healthy digestive system so I don't need to worry about oxalates preventing me from absorbing iron. I hope so anyways.
I do agree that is harder to get the balance right. The government tells us to eat healthier but all the healthy food is expensive. I've seen my farmers organic meat prices and even if I wanted to eat meat I couldn't afford it (I'd only eat quality meat).
Saying that though when I first decided to go Vegan I felt like I was going to be living off sweets and carrots. It's taken me a long time but I think I'm finally getting it right now. I look back at my old shopping lists and think what was I thinking! When I wasn't a vegan I didn't put much thought into what I chose to eat. But now I'm forced to research and learn about my diet so it's really helped me understand foods more and get better at cooking.
Actually I chose the hemp protein because I read so much that it's easier to digest and absorb than whey. One reason being whey protein is completely "dead", in that it has no live enzymes present to digest it. Whereas hemp does. Also lactose in whey means the body has to filter that out too.
This is the opposite of what you said
So who am I to believe? I hate all the contradictory information out there, it's the same with working out. Everyone has a different idea of how to do it, sometimes it hurts my head with all the science.
Bulking on a vegan diet, sounds funny doesn't it. I'm eating avocados, nuts and peanut butter and my friend was poking my belly the other day laughing at my little "food baby". So it is possible.
I agree about the creatine thing, that is a very good question. Why do I respond so well to something that is missing from my diet? Well maybe it is a placebo but I agree with this comment from the test that I read about.
Besides the body makes it's own creatine and where are the animals getting it from to give it you in their meat? I do agree though it's a question I need to explore more.
Going from meat eater to vegetarian had a very good effect on the way I felt. Cutting dairy out an even greater effect. I didn't feel sluggish or tired anymore. I used to suffer from insomnia, get aches, short concentration, bloat and gas.
Just gonna throw this in about dairy, I'm not preaching I'm just linking to this because it's one reason why I don't eat dairy and I think of it as teaching not preaching. Though I'm sure you can come back at me with a link supporting dairy so I'm not gonna judge. I think the reason most vegans have "loud voices" is because they know the animals can't speak out for themselves. http://drhyman.com/blog/2010/06/24/dairy-6-reasons-you-should-avoid-it-at-all-costs-2/#close
Honestly going from vegetarian to vegan had a much greater impact than taking some creatine did.
Fair play if you like the taste of meat, as many lions do! I can see you hunting dem zebras yo.
Hey I would much prefer you using a shotgun to get your meat. It's the big companies running around, ******* the environment, artificially inseminating creatures, mass producing, and keeping animals that I have a problem with.
Thanks for the help and I hope I can also help others too once I gain more experience and knowledge. Maybe there will be a vegan on here who I can give advice to once I get hoooj and he'll be inspired.
Also your earlier post
Thanks for not judging me as preaching but seeing it as passion in how I feel about animals, even though you have a different approach to me you still respect my convictions and commitment. Massive respect to you for that.
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You're taking my posts out of context to suit your argument.
The trick with hemp protein (sure there is another one, too, but can't remember off the top of my head) is their amino profiles are spectacularly complete. However, its biological value (google that, too... it's a dietitic's term, not a broscience one, for effectively nitrogen consumed vs nitrogen excreted) is a fair it lower than whey, beef and even rice protein, meaning that although it is everything you say it is (and which I agree with), humans do not metabolise (digestion is only part of this, remember?) it as well as animal sources.
However, going for vegan sources, rice protein has the best BV. Amusingly, soy milk is higher than beef... It's just a shame a gallon of the stuff is required to match the useable protein content of a steak.
My point this time is that protein content, amino profile and whether or not a broteinz means very little in isolation.
Much like creatine: the uninitiated believe it is a very powerful PED that will turn them into a raging beast whilst sitting at their desk or watching This Morning... All because supplement companies claim it increases power, size and strength.
The truth? It does. There is a lot of very good research backing this up. But the dosing pattern required is circa 5g/day for three to eight weeks for any measurable differences to show up. But not a lot of people care about what ACTUALLY happens...
The effect on veggies/vegans has also been well-tested and is not a placebo.
Bottom line? The 'quick and easy' path is to eat meat. Vegan? That's cool, but it means you will have a much tougher ride than the rest of us.
The trick with hemp protein (sure there is another one, too, but can't remember off the top of my head) is their amino profiles are spectacularly complete. However, its biological value (google that, too... it's a dietitic's term, not a broscience one, for effectively nitrogen consumed vs nitrogen excreted) is a fair it lower than whey, beef and even rice protein, meaning that although it is everything you say it is (and which I agree with), humans do not metabolise (digestion is only part of this, remember?) it as well as animal sources.
However, going for vegan sources, rice protein has the best BV. Amusingly, soy milk is higher than beef... It's just a shame a gallon of the stuff is required to match the useable protein content of a steak.
My point this time is that protein content, amino profile and whether or not a broteinz means very little in isolation.
Much like creatine: the uninitiated believe it is a very powerful PED that will turn them into a raging beast whilst sitting at their desk or watching This Morning... All because supplement companies claim it increases power, size and strength.
The truth? It does. There is a lot of very good research backing this up. But the dosing pattern required is circa 5g/day for three to eight weeks for any measurable differences to show up. But not a lot of people care about what ACTUALLY happens...
The effect on veggies/vegans has also been well-tested and is not a placebo.
Bottom line? The 'quick and easy' path is to eat meat. Vegan? That's cool, but it means you will have a much tougher ride than the rest of us.
Hi, a little advice please..
I got some High 5 Zero tablets to mix with water to go in my camelback while riding. First time i used them I was fine. The second time I used them was on Saturday (mixed 3 tabs into 2L, drank the contents over 2 hours). Saturday afternoon I started having an upset/washing machine stomach which is still happening on and off.
I can't decide if its the High 5 or just a coincidence.. Opinions?
I got some High 5 Zero tablets to mix with water to go in my camelback while riding. First time i used them I was fine. The second time I used them was on Saturday (mixed 3 tabs into 2L, drank the contents over 2 hours). Saturday afternoon I started having an upset/washing machine stomach which is still happening on and off.
I can't decide if its the High 5 or just a coincidence.. Opinions?
Soldato
- Joined
- 3 Jun 2005
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- 7,613
You can make your own electrolyte drink easy enough, just do a google.
Just about to order some stuff from TPW and wondering if I need anything else.
(I posted what ill be doing in the Ratz thread)
Would it be beneficial for me to add anything into the protein like Leucine for recovery? or (don't shoot me) creatine - ive read this stuffs pointless?
Oh and if you have a code give me it since im a new customer.
Sorry for the bell'ish questions
Last one, Benefits to take a Preworkout or intra workout drink? what do you guys take or stick with water?
What im buying so far
2kg Protein
Tub of omega 3 capsules
1 bag of Leucine
This okay to start me off? Im thinking using the same protein after my workout but add a scoop of Leucine.
(I posted what ill be doing in the Ratz thread)
Would it be beneficial for me to add anything into the protein like Leucine for recovery? or (don't shoot me) creatine - ive read this stuffs pointless?
Oh and if you have a code give me it since im a new customer.
Sorry for the bell'ish questions
Last one, Benefits to take a Preworkout or intra workout drink? what do you guys take or stick with water?
What im buying so far
2kg Protein
Tub of omega 3 capsules
1 bag of Leucine
This okay to start me off? Im thinking using the same protein after my workout but add a scoop of Leucine.
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Used this code. Don't know if it worked like.
You are a complete phaggot. And I am being one hundred percent serious.
