Supplements the debate/discussion thread

odevans said:
Do you mix the whey in before cooking the porridge or after? Wouldn't mind doing this.
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After, as I use just microwave some oats, ~330g water -100g oats then add milk /whey after

could add water instead of milk, could also try it doing it on the hob with the whey in (done this, stuck to the pan and required more cleaning up), or in microwave (yet to try this, could asplode!?!?!?! :confused: :D)
 
The way I see it, is our bodies can only synthesise so much protein in one go - furthermore it depends on our hormone activity and physical activity, and muscle mass (for protein synthesis). There's just no need to go mad with protein. The RDA of 50g is well under for people in this game of course - certainly more so when it comes to higher lean body mass values... but unless you're a 300lb mass monster there's just little point in consuming that much protein. Your body WILL NOT synthesise all of it, end of. You're wasting your time and getting calories in that will just turn into glycogen/glucose but in a very expensive way. So effectively you're buying very expensive carbs.
 
sedm1000 said:
This splits two ways:

First, there are relatively strong associations between osteoporosis, kidney dysfunction and high protein diets in humans. It is hard to do proper long term human studies, but there is some evidence for risk at much lower levels of protein input than you guys are taking. In animals, high protein diets enlarge and damage kidneys.
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I didn't want to go over all of your post, but I did want to pick at this point. My question is, in what animals? I suspect rats... well, given that rats are "supposed" to eat high-carb diets, yeah, a high protein diet probably isn't going to be good for them.

Give a lion a high protein diet and tell me it has sickly kidneys? Obviously that's not going to happen. The only possibly relevant study would be on chimpanzees.

:confused:
 
Skull said:
I didn't want to go over all of your post, but I did want to pick at this point. My question is, in what animals? I suspect rats... well, given that rats are "supposed" to eat high-carb diets, yeah, a high protein diet probably isn't going to be good for them.

Give a lion a high protein diet and tell me it has sickly kidneys? Obviously that's not going to happen. The only possibly relevant study would be on chimpanzees.

:confused:
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Pigs included, which are pretty comparable with humans.

Lions tend to eat irregularly, and I doubt that intake of protein matches that of 1g/1lb as some here are eating daily. It's the constant overload of protein that I think is a concern, and the damage will take years to accumulate.

If you are putting your body in a state of low-level stress for a prolonged period, then you are building up problems for the future.

I'm not saying don't eat protein - it is perfectly reasonable to eat more than the government recommended dose - but excessive levels such as 300g per day are in the range that can cause long term problems. And this is before you look at what else might be mixed in with the protein and other supplements...
 
I had an absolutely awesome workout today...to say that I'm totally ****** is an understatement.

I had my biomax protein light, and an hour later had my Jack3d. Headed to the gym and done a shoulder workout...(tried something different today and worked shoulders using dumbells only), it was a great session.

Im going to give Anadraulic State GT a try tomorrow and see how I get on. If its anything like Jack3d I will be pleased.

oh and my cardio is hardcore (for me) I looked like I had been thrown in a swimming pool when I left the gym this evening.

great stuff!!
 
Also you can't compare ourselves too much to wild animals like lions, as they have evolved to eat meat/flesh and as such they're bodies are more adept to dealing with such diets. Ours typically used to be fats and protein, with some carbs though from rice and bread. Howevever carbs are ok, it's just the refined carbs that are appalling for you - keep away from refined carbs and you'll be fine - you need some carbs IMO as they are the energy source for your body. Fats, carbs and protein are all absolutely required, protein bias is good and necessary compared to regular non training people - but it's not the be-all end-all of what your diet should contain.
 
B1C3P you say you eat 350-400g, how tall are you and how much do you weigh, and what is your bodyfat percentage? I'm just curious.

This question goes out to whoever has an answer for me = how would I know if something is wrong with my kidneys? I feel healthy, would I be in pain or something?

EDIT: Freefaller how big are you aswell, height, weight, bodyfat, and how big is your chest and arms?
 
SkScotchegg said:
B1C3P you say you eat 350-400g, how tall are you and how much do you weigh, and what is your bodyfat percentage? I'm just curious.

This question goes out to whoever has an answer for me = how would I know if something is wrong with my kidneys? I feel healthy, would I be in pain or something?

EDIT: Freefaller how big are you aswell, height, weight, bodyfat, and how big is your chest and arms?
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Im 6ft on the dot as far as I know... and 16 stone or so. Body fat no idea don't check pml, but it's fairly low. Not ripped to shreds but pretty lean?


And far as I know for liver you won't feel anything however your body will show signs of liver issues. For kidneys you usually feel pain.
 
SkScotchegg said:
B1C3P you say you eat 350-400g, how tall are you and how much do you weigh, and what is your bodyfat percentage? I'm just curious.

This question goes out to whoever has an answer for me = how would I know if something is wrong with my kidneys? I feel healthy, would I be in pain or something?

EDIT: Freefaller how big are you aswell, height, weight, bodyfat, and how big is your chest and arms?
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Posted lots of pics in the past - they should give you an idea of what I'm like. I'm just shy of 6'1", weigh around 100kg +/- 2kg - it really does depend. Fairly low bodyfat, I was measured recently at 15% which I'm more than happy with - not bothered about being super lean. Not sure of chest size, but I wear 48" jackets as 46 is a little tight. Erm arms are over 18" I think, legs are over 27", waist is just under 36".
 
BennyC said:
Don't paint us all with the same brush.

Needless to say there are people subjecting themselves to far worse binge drinking, substance abuse, smoking, poor diet and little to no exercise.
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That wasn't the intention - generally you guys will be fitter than the bulk of the population. I do think that there is a regulatory issue that has to be looked at wrt regulation of supplements.

Freefaller said:
Also you can't compare ourselves too much to wild animals like lions, as they have evolved to eat meat/flesh and as such they're bodies are more adept to dealing with such diets. Ours typically used to be fats and protein, with some carbs though from rice and bread. Howevever carbs are ok, it's just the refined carbs that are appalling for you - keep away from refined carbs and you'll be fine - you need some carbs IMO as they are the energy source for your body. Fats, carbs and protein are all absolutely required, protein bias is good and necessary compared to regular non training people - but it's not the be-all end-all of what your diet should contain.
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I didn't make the comparison with lions - pigs is much closer to reality. And pig physiology is damaged by high protein diets.

I agree that modern diets are carb overweighted, and that more protein rich diets are preferable. The issue that I raise is that over-doing the protein (300+grams per day regularly) could well be detrimental to long term health. This is something that people should bear in mind.
 
Oh I agree entirely with you with over doing the protein :) I'm not an advocate for 10kgs of protein shakes and reliance on them etc... I agree that excessive protein depending on your physique is absolutely not good long term, 100% in agreement and something I've stated many times in the past. :)

Fats and carbs are often over looked also - you NEED both. Carbs aren't as evil as people make out - they just need to be the right ones.
 
Freefaller said:
Fats and carbs are often over looked also - you NEED both. Carbs aren't as evil as people make out - they just need to be the right ones.
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Exactly, where else are you going to get your energy from? :confused:
Too much protein will just be secreted via urea, but you can have excessive amounts and cause damage.
 
Indeed. Also, protein WILL turn into a glycogen so it's effectively an expensive way of performing gluconeogenesis as the protein cells have to be converted twice effectively which can be taxing on the body.

When you have excess proteins they will be broken down in to aCoA, pyruvate an/oxaloacetate. The latter 2 can undergo conversion to glucose - which happens, then will just be stored, and when the glycogen levels are maxed out you will start storing fat too.

A very expensive way of getting energy if you ask me!
 
Freefaller said:
When you have excess proteins they will be broken down in to aCoA, pyruvate an/oxaloacetate. The latter 2 can undergo conversion to glucose - which happens, then will just be stored, and when the glycogen levels are maxed out you will start storing fat too.
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Are you talking about the Krebs cycle? Pyruvate is turned into acetyl coa before entering the Krebs cycle and producing energy?
 
Basically yes, I was probably going into too much details. You're right pryuvate is turned into acoa before the krebs cycle, but also within the krebs cycle (I was just splitting the main elements that it turned into, not necessarily the sequence, my bad!) - I was just giving a simplistic overview of proteins turning to energy. :) I wasn't going to go through all the ATP cycle and fatty acid synthesis to palmitate etc... as it all gets quite complicated! :D (for me anyway :p)

In essence too much protein = very convoluted way of getting energy which will be more likely to be stored as fat if it isn't used!
 
haha no worries, it brushed some dust off of my biology brain cells ;)
It's all pretty simple, put stuff in- get stuff out :D (but figuring out which is most efficient is best)
 
Freefaller said:
Basically yes, I was probably going into too much details. You're right pryuvate is turned into acoa before the krebs cycle, but also within the krebs cycle (I was just splitting the main elements that it turned into, not necessarily the sequence, my bad!) - I was just giving a simplistic overview of proteins turning to energy. :) I wasn't going to go through all the ATP cycle and fatty acid synthesis to palmitate etc... as it all gets quite complicated! :D (for me anyway :p)

In essence too much protein = very convoluted way of getting energy which will be more likely to be stored as fat if it isn't used!
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Suspect that the issue is going to be more about absorption - there's only so much that can be taken up by the gut - the rest is going to feed your flora, rather than you.
 
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