support for the british worker

[Dolph]

I'm alright, screw everyone else seems to the sentiment in this country today and it's a shame. Jobs in Britain should go to British workers if they have the skills to do them, as is the case regarding Total. How much is it going to cost to keep these people who are perfectly able to do skilled engineering jobs on the dole as opposed to them working and paying taxes?

My boss said the other day there aren't enough socialist values left in this country anymore, and I agree with him.

Even if those British workers cost more? Who should pay the additional costs?

This is the key issue, are we prepared to pay the extra for protectionist policies, or alternatively are our 'skilled' workforce prepared to lower their rates to ensure they are competitive?

The problem with this country is not a lack of socialist values, it's far too many, causing people to abdicate responsibility for the consequences of their demands.

 

[wordy]

I'd be happy for prices to go up for items in order to protect British jobs and workers, we all benefit from people in employment, large scale unemployment creates nothing but misery, look at what happened to parts of nothern England when Thatcher shut the pits down, it wasn't only miners who lost everything, it was their families and people in other forms of employment who traded in those communities.

If we all stood up for each other we'd be in a better position than we are with the I'm alright screw everyone else attitude that is so prevelant in todays society.

 

[Dolph]

I'd be happy for prices to go up for items in order to protect British jobs and workers, we all benefit from people in employment, large scale unemployment creates nothing but misery, look at what happened to parts of nothern England when Thatcher shut the pits down, it wasn't only miners who lost everything, it was their families and people in other forms of employment who traded in those communities.

If we all stood up for each other we'd be in a better position than we are with the I'm alright screw everyone else attitude that is so prevelant in todays society.

You'd actively encourage inflation unnecessarily, reducing our competetiveness in a global market and thereby driving the country further into disaster than it is already?

The issue with the pits was that they should have been scaled down years before, or the miners should have accepted market rate wages that would have made the coal competative, their refusal to compete was what caused their demise.

We should not be advocating protectionism, there is no right to a job, if people won't work for market rate then that's their problem.

 

[Andrew_McP]

If we all stood up for each other we'd be in a better position than we are with the I'm alright screw everyone else attitude that is so prevalent in today's society.

What's happening is, sadly, irreversible. The capitalist system depends upon cheap labour, and the new globalised market -- which you can't protect yourself from by putting up artificial barriers -- dictates how cheap that labour will be... whether it's Chinese workers making our TVs and computer parts instead of domestic workers, or cheap, flexible, Polish or Portuguese workers coming here to do construction work.

Protectionism has been tried in many countries over many decades, and it inevitably fails.

I understand the fear and anger shown in threads like this, but the globalised economy which made OcUK's profits and this forum possible is in the process of averaging out the wage of every person on the planet. About 5 billion people stand to gain significantly, and about 1 billion of us are going to have to get used to a lower (but not necessarily worse unless you think money is everything) standard of living.

Unless, that is, we can *genuinely* harness the 'knowledge economy' thing people have been banging on about for years. Sadly we got diverted from that path by a credit-based economy stretching back perhaps as much as 20 years (since financial de-regulation). That wasted a whole generation of potential as young people were pushed, perhaps willingly, perhaps naively, into courses and jobs which were ultimately just froth on Britain's economic pint.

We face difficult times. I hope to be proven wrong, but threads like this make me wonder if we have the collective stomach to face up to our new place in a world where economic power is shifting rapidly eastwards.

Andrew McP

 

[arknor]

Even if those British workers cost more? Who should pay the additional costs?

same thing could be said about a lot of things in this country.

may aswell just goto aldi, polish shops etc.

english stuff is to expensive compared to the cheap foreign alternatives, its a different matter entirely when your wanting is to buy british though isnt it.

 

[dowie]

Thats what I dont like, a French company living off British land employing Italian labor.

while we're at it why not pull back all of BP investments in the US, russia, middle east etc... Get shell out of nigeria, get HSBC out of just about every country in the world...

<>-< it lets just get rid of any global companies and all just go back to farming and being poor then we can be as patriotic & jingoistic as we like

 

[Dolph]

same thing could be said about a lot of things in this country.

may aswell just goto aldi, polish shops etc.

english stuff is to expensive compared to the cheap foreign alternatives, its a different matter entirely when your wanting is to buy british though isnt it.

If British stuff is better, than the additional cost doesn't matter so much. The big problem with a lot of the non-specialised things (including labour and manufacturing) that the UK supplies is that it's expensive and poor quality, not just that it's expensive, or that it's the same price but the quality isn't as good...

 

[Deadly Ferret]

The way the system works is that if you want something changed once it has been implemented, then vote for someone who will change it or form a party over it and try and implement the change yourself.

It doesn't work. That is why, amongst myriad other problems, we are suffering the consequences of a referendum in which much fewer than 20% of those people currently of working age took part.

 

[squawkBOX]

What's happening is, sadly, irreversible.

[snip]

Protectionism has been tried in many countries over many decades, and it inevitably fails.

[snip]

Unless, that is, we can *genuinely* harness the 'knowledge economy' thing people have been banging on about for years.

[snip]

We face difficult times. I hope to be proven wrong, but threads like this make me wonder if we have the collective stomach to face up to our new place in a world where economic power is shifting rapidly eastwards.

Andrew McP

Brilliant post! I agree completely, unless we are willing to adapt and change (as most of the rest of the world is), we are certainly going to meet our downfall sooner or later.

Those advocating protectionism - In my opinion - are leading to the downward depression of the UK.

However, I'd like to think that I am socially and economically mobile, so if need be - I'll move to where I'm required.

 

[Slam62]

these things tend to lead to wars

 

[mattheman]

these things tend to lead to wars

and id know what i'd be doing with my squad.

 

[jamoor]

What useless goons, go on strike, they will just bring in foreign workers that won't!

I struggle to understand why they strike, don't like it? LEAVE!

 

[wordy]

You'd actively encourage inflation unnecessarily, reducing our competetiveness in a global market and thereby driving the country further into disaster than it is already?

The issue with the pits was that they should have been scaled down years before, or the miners should have accepted market rate wages that would have made the coal competative, their refusal to compete was what caused their demise.

We should not be advocating protectionism, there is no right to a job, if people won't work for market rate then that's their problem.

I'm not saying we should blindly protect everyones jobs while they sit on their arses reading the sun and not doing anything. I'm saying if the native workforce has the skills then they should get preference when it comes to domestic jobs. BUT at the same time a solid work ethic must be expected of everyone in employment in Great Britain.

The more people in work, means more tax, more taxes means more money in the pot for the gov't, if these increased taxes were used to amongst other things to give tax breaks to companies who employ British workers then it would be a more attractive proposition to employ British.

Another thing I'd like to say is that a lot of people on here have good jobs with a decent amount of security. If the resecsion continues and they end up not being able to pay the mortgage because of cheap IT experts from India then I bet their opinions would change on the subject.

 

[LabR@t]

more labour tosh trying to fob us off

The government has signalled it might challenge European Union law to prevent British workers from being "undercut" by cheap foreign labour.

looks like they are getting rattled

but it will amount to nothing

 

[LabR@t]

What useless goons, go on strike, they will just bring in foreign workers that won't!

I struggle to understand why they strike, don't like it? LEAVE!

leave? have you not noticed we are in a recession there are no jobs about

go back to your studies time you finish uni it should be over !

 

[Dolph]

I'm not saying we should blindly protect everyones jobs while they sit on their arses reading the sun and not doing anything. I'm saying if the native workforce has the skills then they should get preference when it comes to domestic jobs. BUT at the same time a solid work ethic must be expected of everyone in employment in Great Britain.

The more people in work, means more tax, more taxes means more money in the pot for the gov't, if these increased taxes were used to amongst other things to give tax breaks to companies who employ British workers then it would be a more attractive proposition to employ British.

I agree with all of that, I just disagree with the idea that it should be anything other than market driven. The problem in this country is that people have got used to being insulated from the market in the past, and even now there's still an expectation among most people that they are worth more than the market rate for their skills, which leads to unreasonable wage demands. We're also still suffering in some industries from previous periods of unreasonable or unrealistic demands that were accepted following strike action.

Another thing I'd like to say is that a lot of people on here have good jobs with a decent amount of security. If the resecsion continues and they end up not being able to pay the mortgage because of cheap IT experts from India then I bet their opinions would change on the subject.

It's already happening, the solution is to keep refining and changing your skill set to offer something new to justify your cost, or to accept that your cost needs to be lower for your current skill.

 

[jamoor]

leave? have you not noticed we are in a recession there are no jobs about

go back to your studies time you finish uni it should be over !

That's the point though LEAVE and allow someone else to fill in the position that will work according to the availible conditions, if no one comes forward, the employer will need a rethink.

Also do you really think that giving into their demands will help anyone in the long term? They need a good kicking to show them who's boss.

 

[Indy500]

It's already happening, the solution is to keep refining and changing your skill set to offer something new to justify your cost, or to accept that your cost needs to be lower for your current skill.

Less than minimum wage then? Have you tried living on this kind of money? I'm locked out of most other fields because employers are largely unwilling to train someone who wants to learn. Including for something as basic as cleaning or bar work. Nearly everything I could do to improve my lot (for example, getting a car) costs money which I don't have.

I recall I had a chat with you about this last year. Your answer was something along the lines of "go into more depth on your cover letter and aim higher". Didn't get far, unless you think a temporary warehouse job is better than what I was doing before...and of course that ended fairly quickly once the Christmas rush was over.

As for your argument about wages = inflation. Sorry, thats a load of tripe. If the British public actually had some spending power, we would not have seen all these retailers disappear one after the other like dominoes. We would not have seen this debt bubble, or banks resorting to dodgy money markets to further the lending spree. We're seeing inflation because the BoE\government think printing their way out of this will work. I'm afraid all that happens when you increase the number of tokens is each one then becoming devalued.

Perhaps I should clarify my point about wages: it is a minority of senior staff that are well paid, whereas the lower level staff that actually do the hard graft get next to nothing in comparison. It is easy to sit there from whatever well-paid job it is you're doing and whine about the less fortunate (something this forum does in abundance). It is more difficult to admit the market has changed from favouring employees in the 70s\80s to the complete reverse today.

As for taking a degree, that is the equivalent of saying taking on more debt is a good idea because you might get a job in 3 years time. Lets suppose the rules change and allow me to do this, for argument's sake - I will then have 10% of my salary docked for the next 15-20 years, on top of the usual taxes. This money could be going into the economy and boosting businesses, which in turn makes life easier for workers. I could also have been potentially spending that time in employment and learning on the job itself, experience which is always valued. See where I'm going with this?

 

[jamoor]

Perhaps I should clarify my point about wages: it is a minority of senior staff that are well paid, whereas the lower level staff that actually do the hard graft get next to nothing in comparison. It is easy to sit there from whatever well-paid job it is you're doing and whine about the less fortunate (something this forum does in abundance). It is more difficult to admit the market has changed from favouring employees in the 70s\80s to the complete reverse today.

The thing is supply and demand, there are less people capable of doing a senior staff role and more people that can do the "hard graft"

 

[Indy500]

The thing is supply and demand, there are less people capable of doing a senior staff role and more people that can do the "hard graft"

How do you know that? How do you know the senior staff don't just sit on their backsides all day? It seems the criteria for such a role usually involves having been in one for a certain period. Kind of difficult to break in don't you think? Unless we all enter the job market with experience in lots of roles, which is a logical impossibility?

Are you going to address the other points I've brought up?