support for the british worker

[Dolph]

Less than minimum wage then? Have you tried living on this kind of money? I'm locked out of most other fields because employers are largely unwilling to train someone who wants to learn. Including for something as basic as cleaning or bar work. Nearly everything I could do to improve my lot (for example, getting a car) costs money which I don't have.

I worked in McDonalds (as did my other half, then my housemate) for 18 months after I graduated, so yes, I have tried living on that kind of money.

I recall I had a chat with you about this last year. Your answer was something along the lines of "go into more depth on your cover letter and aim higher". Didn't get far, unless you think a temporary warehouse job is better than what I was doing before...and of course that ended fairly quickly once the Christmas rush was over.

I'm sorry to hear that The job market at the moment sucks, there's nothing to do but keep applying for the few jobs that are about, or look at going back into education.

Perhaps I should clarify my point about wages: it is a minority of senior staff that are well paid, whereas the lower level staff that actually do the hard graft get next to nothing in comparison. It is easy to sit there from whatever well-paid job it is you're doing and whine about the less fortunate (something this forum does in abundance). It is more difficult to admit the market has changed from favouring employees in the 70s\80s to the complete reverse today.

My job isn't half as well paid as I would like, certainly less than the national average, but like I said, I've done the whole minimum wage thing, I do know what it's like, but I also know that you can pull yourself out of it. I also know a lot of people who won't, but it's not because they can't.

As for taking a degree, that is the equivalent of saying taking on more debt is a good idea because you might get a job in 3 years time. Lets suppose the rules change and allow me to do this, for argument's sake - I will then have 10% of my salary docked for the next 15-20 years, on top of the usual taxes. This money could be going into the economy and boosting businesses, which in turn makes life easier for workers. I could also have been potentially spending that time in employment and learning on the job itself, experience which is always valued. See where I'm going with this?

Going to uni right now is actually a great, great idea, it may sound strange, and yes you'll incur some (very manageable) debt, but the economy is likely to at least be starting to pick up in three to four years time.

Incidentally, the repayments on a student loan are 9% of earnings over £15k, which changes the situation quite a bit IMO.

 

[Indy500]

I worked in McDonalds (as did my other half, then my housemate) for 18 months after I graduated, so yes, I have tried living on that kind of money.

I know, you showed me your CV. That was before we had the discussion though. To my knowledge you sold phones at the time and still do, is this wrong? I also suspect Plymouth isn't the same as London...

I'm sorry to hear that The job market at the moment sucks, there's nothing to do but keep applying for the few jobs that are about.

Right, so this is why I'm tired of people whining and repeating the same nonsense (lazy Brits blah blah).

My job isn't half as well paid as I would like, certainly less than the national average, but like I said, I've done the whole minimum wage thing, I do know what it's like, but I also know that you can pull yourself out of it. I also know a lot of people who won't, but it's not because they can't.

Care to provide some specific examples? Are you telling me over £30,000 is below the average? If you took the mode value, it is closer to £12,000. You told me as a mobile phone salesman that you'd doubled your starting wage in 3 years, which is quite an achievement by anyone's standards.

Going to uni right now is actually a great, great idea, it may sound strange, and yes you'll incur some (very manageable) debt, but the economy is likely to at least be starting to pick up in three to four years time.

Well, I suppose it would be easier to get long-term accomodation as a student. But last time I checked, the loans were a one-time thing...and the alternative CDL from a bank is not going to cover the £9,000 fees, living costs etc for 3 years, at least not in the South East.

Incidentally, the repayments on a student loan are 9% of earnings over £15k, which changes the situation quite a bit IMO.

Yes, I know this. But why would you go to university only to end up in the same crappy jobs as before? The inference was it would be to improve chances at the better jobs, graduate schemes and the like.

 

[Andrew1978]

I imagine its a hell of a lot easier to pull yourself out of a mcdonald's job when you have a university degree. What about all the people who left school with no qualifications?

 

[Indy500]

I imagine its a hell of a lot easier to pull yourself out of a mcdonald's job when you have a university degree. What about all the people who left school with no qualifications?

Probably, except I've been educated to level 4 standard. Incidentally, those unqualified people still seem to get work in bars, as cleaners etc because these jobs do not require qualifications. They then get valuable experience that improves their chances of getting back into similar jobs if they lose one.

As it stands though, any job would be better than none.

 

[jamoor]

I imagine its a hell of a lot easier to pull yourself out of a mcdonald's job when you have a university degree. What about all the people who left school with no qualifications?

The thing I wonder is, all these people that are pulling themselves out of mcdonalds jobs due to "qualifications", who will be left to do the McDonalds jobs?

 

[Andrew1978]

At a guess i'd say next years uni students.

 

[Dolph]

I know, you showed me your CV. That was before we had the discussion though. To my knowledge you sell phones, is this wrong?

That's wrong, I work for one of the mobile networks, but I don't sell phones.

Right, so this is why I'm tired of people whining and repeating the same nonsense (lazy Brits blah blah).

I haven't repeated it, I've observed that those striking are frequently not being realistic.

Care to provide some specific examples? Are you telling me over £30,000 is below the average? If you took the mode value, it is closer to £12,000. You told me as a mobile phone salesman that you'd doubled your starting wage in 3 years, which is quite an achievement by anyone's standards.

I wish I was on over £30k a year, the mean average is around £24k, which gives you an idea of what I started on. Sadly the rate of increase has slowed dramatically now, but I'm happy enough with my lot.

Well, I suppose it would be easier to get long-term accomodation as a student. But last time I checked, the loans were a one-time thing...and the alternative CDL from a bank is not going to cover the £9,000 fees, living costs etc for 3 years, at least not in the South East.

If you've already had student loans and fees for a full degree course, it gets trickier, and you're right, if it's a CDL from a bank, things change dramatically.

Yes, I know this. But why would you go to university only to end up in the same crappy jobs as before? The inference was it would be to improve chances at the better jobs, graduate schemes and the like.

Depends what you do, I'm finding I'm using some of the stuff from my degree suddenly in my current role, after 7 years of hardly using any of it. Knowledge never hurts anyone.

 

[Dolph]

I imagine its a hell of a lot easier to pull yourself out of a mcdonald's job when you have a university degree. What about all the people who left school with no qualifications?

The job I took to get myself out of McDonalds, they never asked for qualifications, it was all interview based...

 

[RDM]

That's wrong, I work for one of the mobile networks, but I don't sell phones.

Which one and can you get me cheap calls?

Depends what you do, I'm finding I'm using some of the stuff from my degree suddenly in my current role, after 7 years of hardly using any of it. Knowledge never hurts anyone.

I never use anything from my HNC, but then I moved from microbiology a long time back. I have however never really had problems finding work (though will be interesting to see how it goes end of March) but I have done some pretty awful jobs in the past.

 

[Indy500]

That's wrong, I work for one of the mobile networks, but I don't sell phones.

Ok, no problem, thanks for the correction.

I haven't repeated it, I've observed that those striking are frequently not being realistic.

I don't plan on striking, never have done. I always discussed my grievances with the relevant superior.

I wish I was on over £30k a year, the mean average is around £24k, which gives you an idea of what I started on. Sadly the rate of increase has slowed dramatically now, but I'm happy enough with my lot.

£24k doesn't buy you very much in terms of a home around here, which at some point I'd want. I don't believe in earning wages for the sake of fancy toys.

If you've already had student loans and fees for a full degree course, it gets trickier, and you're right, if it's a CDL from a bank, things change dramatically.

The reason I used myself as an example is not everyone is an illiterate poorly qualified manual worker demanding £50 an hour.

Depends what you do, I'm finding I'm using some of the stuff from my degree suddenly in my current role, after 7 years of hardly using any of it. Knowledge never hurts anyone.

I'm aware of that, I have an A-level in Chemistry. Inevitably it comes in handy when a lot of my work involved machinery of some kind or computers...

Despite saying that, I regret focusing my education in the sciences\information technology rather than a more practical area (eg electronics).

 

[LabR@t]

That's the point though LEAVE and allow someone else to fill in the position that will work according to the availible conditions, if no one comes forward, the employer will need a rethink.

Also do you really think that giving into their demands will help anyone in the long term? They need a good kicking to show them who's boss.

some people acutally need jobs to support themselves and their families and leaving isn't an option. There are a lot of very scared people out there who just don't like what they are seeing happening in the british labour market. the working man has been kicked in the teeth for too long and abused by the sham that is temp agencies I know some people where i work have be there for 6+ years as a temp, lower wage (8k per annum less) no pension no sick pay less holiday the real level of unemployment is a lot higher these so called agencies have grown out of what was a true temp service to the wholesale exploitation of vast numbers of people who want/deserve proper full time employment.

 

[Andrew1978]

I'm not sure if this is still the same but a lot of those temporary jobs you get through agencies all they do is cycle through unemployed people because the job centre pays the company you work for some money towards employing you.

 

[Indy500]

I'm not sure if this is still the same but a lot of those temporary jobs you get through agencies all they do is cycle through unemployed people because the job centre pays the company you work for some money towards employing you.

New Deal? Yes, they get a training grant of £2500 per worker if the job lasts for 6 weeks...this is for long-term unemployed (about 9 months or so).

 

[Andrew1978]

Yeah and you need to work there for at least 3 months before you are considered for a permanent job and miraculously they dont need you, only for the position to re open again. i worked at one company 3 times, they even asked for me by name.

 

[Indy500]

Yeah and you need to work there for at least 3 months before you are considered for a permanent job and miraculously they dont need you, only for the position to re open again. i worked at one company 3 times, they even asked for me by name.

Yeah, and 3 months in the job is also the time you legally gain proper working rights. Its a loophole that needs to be closed, just like the apprentice loophole that allows companies to pay next to nothing (often £70 a week for 40 hours).

 

[RDM]

I'm not sure if this is still the same but a lot of those temporary jobs you get through agencies all they do is cycle through unemployed people because the job centre pays the company you work for some money towards employing you.

On the other hand a lot of temporary jobs you get through agencies also lead to full time employment.

 

[Indy500]

On the other hand a lot of temporary jobs you get through agencies also lead to full time employment.

Speaking from experience, agencies have been a colossal waste of time. Approaching companies myself yielded better results regardless of the job type. Am I seriously supposed to believe letting these people take a chunk of my wages, for making a phone call and sending a CV, is a good deal?

 

[RDM]

Worked for me and with quite a few blue chip companies your only chance of employment seems to be via Graduate placement, agency work or of course knowing someone who works there.

 

[Indy500]

Worked for me and with quite a few blue chip companies your only chance of employment seems to be via Graduate placement, agency work or of course knowing someone who works there.

I'd say the last point is far more important, followed by the placement.

 

[RDM]

I'd say the last point is far more important, followed by the placement.

I work in IT for a large call centre based financial services company. Pretty much all our staff are via agencies. My wife works in IT for a pretty large soap manufacturer and almost all the staff in her (European IT centre) office are from agencies. Permanent and Temp staff. It saves the company the expense and hassle of advertising jobs.