Poll: Syrian Chemical Weapon Attack

Would you support a military strike on Syria without a UN Security Council resolution?


  • Total voters
    828
  • Poll closed .
I dont think we need to bother going over for a fifteenth time why Assad would have used chemical weapons. We have the german intelligence, the american intelligence, the defectors saying theyve used it previously, the mad brother, the potential loss of their capital city. 'It doesnt make sense' only works if you ignore the facts.

And let's forget the Russian intelligence, the Turkish intelligence, the Iranian intelligence, the rebels saying they've used it previously, the fact Russia have been complaining about rebel use of chemical weapons since last year and presenting evidence to the UN that America has sat on, the rebel soldiers and chemical weapons captured by Syrian and Turkish authorities, the fact that the loss of the capital city was never on the cards and that the loyalists are winning the civil war.

'It doesn't make sense' works quite well when you look at everything objectively and decide what's more likely/logical ;)
 
Everyone seems to be forgetting that Russia has been supplying arms to Assad and blocking UN sanctions for two years now. The only reason theyve proposed this is because they were about to watch their client state go boom. And of course because it makes Obama look idiotic. They arent the angels of peace, just better at playing international politics than the US.

And the US/western aligned ME states haven't been supplying arms for about 2 years? Let alone two peace talks scuppered by the US denying a key ally of Syria (Iran) to peace talks whilst backing the inclusion of Israel and Turkey in them? Petty rivalry by the US in trying to keep Iran isolated can be argued as one of the reasons the war got this bad in the first place.

Neither side is a saint in this thing, whether we are talking rebel or government forces or the west and the "east". No matter how much you seem to be suggesting otherwise we are just as bad, if not worse than the Russians in this.
 
Well ive never seen any of that intelligence and it hasnt been publicised as a counter argument so ill reserve judgment on that. The Turkish reports of Al Nusra and Sarin turned out to be a little over imagination by the paper involved, bot in regard to them being Al Nusra and there being any Sarin.

As to who is winning, id say that was difficult to say. If rebels hold multiple districts of your capital city and you still cant budge them after a chemical attack on 11 suburbs, I wouldnt say you were winning, but again thats a matter of opinion. I have seen credible evidence of SAA advances in the south recovering territory previously lost, because lebanese fighters can deply there, but the North is a different story.

Facts facts facts. Id really like to see some credible evidence of the rebels having chemical weapons, I just havent yet.
 
Facts facts facts. Id really like to see some credible evidence of the rebels having chemical weapons, I just havent yet.

Well it's not conclusive yet, but here you go.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...es-Syrian-rebels-of-chemical-weapons-use.html

"According to the testimonies we have gathered, the rebels have used chemical weapons, making use of sarin gas," del Ponte, a former war crimes prosecutor, said in an interview with Swiss radio late on Sunday.

"We still have to deepen our investigation, verify and confirm (the findings) through new witness testimony, but according to what we have established so far, it is at the moment opponents of the regime who are using sarin gas," she added.

She stressed that the UN commission of inquiry on Syria, which she is a part of, had far from finished its investigation.
 
Neither side is a saint in this thing, whether we are talking rebel or government forces or the west and the "east". No matter how much you seem to be suggesting otherwise we are just as bad, if not worse than the Russians in this.

I dont think blame can be apportioned to the degree that one side is worse than the other because theyre both playing different games. I dispute that the US has been supplying arms, I dont think they needed to because of Sunni support by arab states. I do think that the US has deliberately not sought a solution so that Iran, Hezbollah and Russia can pour resources into an unwinnable situation, Hezbollah is being stripped of its best fighters and Iran is spending billions in currency it cant afford, making sanctions bite even more, and all the US had to do was point at the russian veto for two years. Back to the point though, Russia arent the saints theyre being made out as.

Chemical weapons changed all that though, which is why its the emphasis rather than stopping the war. Right or wrong? More like shades of grey.
 
I dont think we need to bother going over for a fifteenth time why Assad would have used chemical weapons. We have the german intelligence, the american intelligence, the defectors saying theyve used it previously, the mad brother, the potential loss of their capital city. 'It doesnt make sense' only works if you ignore the facts. Can we say for sure it was Assad or one of his generals? No, otherwise we wouldnt be having this conversation, so lets not go over it all again because clearly nobody is convincing anybody.

As to why chemical weapons are such a big deal, its any weapon which is designed to be used indiscrimnately. Theres a really good direct answer to exactly that point at http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/08/29/9-questions-about-syria-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask/.



As to russia enabling bloodshed - yes. Has american intervention too? Absolutely. The original point was they arent being angels here, thats only the ICRC. I personally think substantially less civilians would die given Assads methods of winning, but again, were going to have to disagree.

Using Assad potentially using chemical weapons because they MIGHT lose the capital as reasoning why they would maybe use chemical weapons when there was no risk of that happening at all.... is simply silly.

Second, American "intelligence", I won't go as far as to say it's an oxymoron but America has vested interests here and isn't remotely reliable when they've faked evidence before, aren't even slightly beyond lying to get their own way and lets be honest, sending in CIA guys to fake an attack isn't remotely beyond their capability anyway.

On if chemical weapons are good or bad, again I'll point out that by partitioning up weapons arbitrarily into good and bad columns, not surprisingly with the bad weapons being things America/west doesn't like fighting AGAINST, they can at the same time make the "good" weapons list seem more acceptable and themselves seem more moral if they lead a worldwide crusade against a weapon type they don't like and can't defend against easily.

Ultimately land mines are great defensively.... america hasn't had a defensive war in 70 years, but offensive.... So create international outcry with pictures of kids with legs blown off and force the world to rid themselves of mines...... which by and large makes invasion far easier.... and which country is out there invading everyone else. Is it ANY of the countries that used mines, or lets be honest, America... is there any other major country invading others in the past 60 years? funny that their international outcry isn't against nukes, but against the single best defensive tool in the world that puts off invaders, what is one of the biggest things spoken about in Iraq, IED's... which is a mine and one of the only successful tools they've had.

What is the other thing you can't easily defend against, gas, so what is the only other thing international rallied against, the only other fairly easy thing to deploy against invading american forces. I've seen nothing and no explanation why chemical weapons can only be used indiscriminately but "smart bombs" are targetted. Smart bombs, bullets, tanks all kill innocent civilians and there is nothing stopping a chemical weapon being launched into a US base in the middle of nowhere with no chance of civilians being killed. It's simply BS pushed by people who are against weapons which can be used against them and for weapons which they can use well.

The original point I take well, Russia are doing it for their own reasons of not wanting yet another US supported country in the region not because Russia are wanting to do the right thing. It just happens in this case that what Russia wants is also best for Syria. I don't agree the US could wipe out Assad with less losses than Assad wiping out the rebels. US will need to remove Assad from the most heavily populated places in the country. Ultimately even if it were true, supporting a terrorist backed force that is illegally trying to overthrown a government, that started the civil war and has used barberous tactics is beyond reprehensible. Using chemical weapons isn't remotely as immoral as supporting someone like the rebels.... as in Lybia, it will turn into a power struggle and turn into a long drawn out civil war with too many groups and cells fighting for power to actually go in and help them out.

Simple fact is other places in the world will go through civil wars, power struggles, governments being overthrown because the world has worked like that for millenia. It's somewhat "normal", as we've seen in Lybia and Egypt, the "rebels" simply use the tactic of using the unhappy masses to overthrow a government then seize control for themselves. I would be very surprised if the rebels won in Syria and the same issues Lybia/Egypt is having don't occur here. THe "masses" think they've won and they'll have democracy and everything will get better, but it will turn out the leader(s) of the rebellion were talking out their butts, whipping up support talking of fairness, democracy, then when they get the chance it will disintergrate into many smaller battles as they struggle over who gets to be in charge.

Every time we get involved in one of these.... we make life long enemies, when we don't, the countries get through it quicker and easier and don't decide it's our ruddy fault.

It's ridiculous, we can't wade into these situations or even LOOK like we might because it will encourage another country to try the same thing. I said at the time with Egypt that winning will both turn out terribly long term for them, and encourage the same thing elsewhere and it will be a disaster.
 
Ingredients: Sarin = isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) + methylphosphonic difluoride (the ingredients for this compound can easily be sourced).
Knowledge: the ability to use Google, or know what goes in Sarin.
Facilities: A room and a gas mask or two.
Personnel: have you seen the retards that cook crystal meth?

The was a case a few years back where a newspaper managed to order all the ingredients for Sarin just by faxing around orders to a couple of companies.

As for evidence, the Russians were actually complaining to the UN that the rebels were using makeshift Sarin rockets back in July, but the US dragged their heels on it.

Not to question Walter White over here, but sarin can be ingested through the skin so I'm highly skeptical that "a room and a gas mask or two" is good enough for a fully functional lab. I still suggest it's a bit more difficult than you suggest, or else there'd have been a few more terrorist attacks using it.

You do understand that a gas canister welded to a mortar round can carry any gas the user decides to put in it yeah?

Yes but there's no evidence that they have any sarin to put in that canister - they're stood round it in normal clothes lol. The picture you posted is more likely to be evidence of a Scrapheap Challenge programme in Syria, than evidence of a chemical weapons programme.
 
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And let's forget the Russian intelligence, the Turkish intelligence, the Iranian intelligence, the rebels saying they've used it previously, the fact Russia have been complaining about rebel use of chemical weapons since last year and presenting evidence to the UN that America has sat on, the rebel soldiers and chemical weapons captured by Syrian and Turkish authorities, the fact that the loss of the capital city was never on the cards and that the loyalists are winning the civil war.

'It doesn't make sense' works quite well when you look at everything objectively and decide what's more likely/logical ;)

I don't care what Russian or Iranian intelligence say, they're just as bad if not worse than our intelligence service. I'd like a source on your Turkish intelligence claim though - it'd better not be that now debunked claim that sarin was found at an Al-Nusra compound in Turkey for your argument's sake.

Speaking of which, it's funny how immediately after that raid in Turkey, a leftist newspaper published the incorrect sarin claims straight away. I smell the hand of the FSB in that. But then brave, honest Russia would never stoop so low as a smear campaign against Assad's enemies would they?
 
Not to question Walter White over here, but sarin can be ingested through the skin so I'm highly skeptical that "a room and a gas mask or two" is good enough for a fully functional lab.

Funny you say that, I guess you didn't notice how none of the people treating the victims were wearing protective suits or gas masks?

I'll leave this here again, no doubt those who have already decided Assad used chemical weapons will ignore it, probably for silly reasons like the website having the word 'truth' in the url rather than disagreeing with the actual content of the article, but you never know.

http://truth-out.org/news/item/18559-how-intelligence-was-twisted-to-support-an-attack-on-syria

The symptoms of a nerve agent attack are clear-cut: Soon after initial symptoms of tightness of chest, pinpoint pupils and running nose, the victim begins to vomit and to defecate and urinate uncontrollably, followed by twitching and jerking. Ultimately, the victim becomes comatose and suffocates in a series of convulsive spasms. The symptoms shown in dozens of videos of victims being treated in medical centers in Ghouta, however, are quite different. In an interview with Truthout, Dan Kaszeta, a specialist on chemical, biological and radiological weapons who has advised the White House on those issues, pointed out that a nerve gas attack would have been accompanied by a pattern of symptoms that are not shown in the videos posted online. "There should be more or less universal vomiting," Kaszeta said. But he did not see any vomiting or evidence of such vomiting on the clothing or on the floor in any of the videos he saw. Stephen G. Johnson, a chemical weapons forensics expert at Cranfield University in the United Kingdom, noticed the same thing. "Why aren't more people vomiting?" he asked Truthout in an interview.

A number of specialists, including Kaszeta and Johnson, also noticed that personnel were shown handling the victims without any special protective clothing but not exhibiting any symptoms themselves. Paula Vanninen, director of the Finnish Institute for Verification of Chemical Weapons, and Gwynn Winfield, the editor of CBRNe World, a magazine specializing in chemical weapons, made the same point in interviews with AFP on August 21. The only evidence of such effects is secondhand at best: Statements issued the following day by both the spokesman for the Supreme Military Council of the Free Syrian Army, Khaled Saleh, and the spokesman for its Washington, DC, arm, the Syrian Support Group, said that doctors and "first responders" had reported that they were suffering symptoms of neurotoxic poisoning. Saleh claimed that at least six doctors had died.

Yes but there's no evidence that they have any sarin to put in that canister - they're stood round it in normal clothes lol. The picture you posted is more likely to be evidence of a Scrapheap Challenge programme in Syria, than evidence of a chemical weapons programme.

Did you read the thread? It's about 5 posts up. :confused:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...es-Syrian-rebels-of-chemical-weapons-use.html
 
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I don't care what Russian or Iranian intelligence say, they're just as bad if not worse than our intelligence service. I'd like a source on your Turkish intelligence claim though - it'd better not be that now debunked claim that sarin was found at an Al-Nusra compound in Turkey for your argument's sake.

Speaking of which, it's funny how immediately after that raid in Turkey, a leftist newspaper published the incorrect sarin claims straight away. I smell the hand of the FSB in that. But then brave, honest Russia would never stoop so low as a smear campaign against Assad's enemies would they?

Guys stop wasting your time on this dude and devlish... They sincerely believe what the CNN, BBC, Fox News says to them without a hunch...

They still cant admit to themselves that Iraq was an illegal war based on falsified intelligence something western governments now admit...

Those are die-hard fanatics who will never surrender and will never accept other view apart from official CNN, Fox News... Which to them is 100% unbiased source of information.

They will continue to say that Russia is lying and falsify evidence and yet since the USSR fell, Russia has not done any of the kind. Georgian war where Russians were blamed for the start by WHOLE western media broadcasted south ossetian cities getting bombarded by Georgian forces and then saying it was the Russians bombing cities of Georgia.

A video of an American girl on CNN or Fox saying that they were running away from Georgian soldiers because they were trying to kill them and that Russian soldiers were the good guys, the presenter cut to commercial and started coughing to try to interrupt her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM04jvSsX3c

Final report by UN concluded that Georgia was the aggressor in this conflict and pretty much everything Russian media reported was the truth.

There are so many times since 1990`s when Western governments and media trolled the world by broadcasting lies to enter conflicts and yet you still believe that there is no way this is happening with Syria.


Its truly shocking, how ignorant of a human being you have to be to not question US,UK policy on this conflicts after so major ****-ups and lies.


Dont get me wrong, Russians are by far are not angels and go after their own interest, however their outcome is what would be best for Syria in my opinion... We already seen Libya which is currently fighting street to street the promised democracy has failed and now its way worse than it ever was under geddaffi...

We have seen afghanistan and iraq, places where as soon as NATO leaves war will break out, Syria will be no different. I cant say Iraq lives now better than under saddam especially if you take into account the years that have passed. I dont want to even talk about Libya since that country is screwed beyond belief now.

The right thing in this whole conflict would be to bombard those "rebels" and not the Assad, those rebels have commited outrageous atrocities of genocide and even use of chemical weapons not to mention links with Al-queeda... WHO the hell are we helping!??
 
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The right thing in this whole conflict would be to bombard those "Assad regime types" and not the Rebels, those Assad regime types have commited outrageous atrocities of genocide and even use of chemical weapons not to mention links with Iran... WHO the hell are we helping.

Etc etc etc

You may feel smug and clever with your conspiracies and 'truth' web sites but its amazing just how interchangeable these arguments and sound bites are.
 
The right thing in this whole conflict would be to bombard those "Assad regime types" and not the Rebels, those Assad regime types have commited outrageous atrocities of genocide and even use of chemical weapons not to mention links with Iran... WHO the hell are we helping.

Etc etc etc

You may feel smug and clever with your conspiracies and 'truth' web sites but its amazing just how interchangeable these arguments and sound bites are.

Err, where did Assad commit genocide?? Rebels have videos and are open about massacring whole alawite communities... Russians said rebels used chemical weapons a year ago and even submitted a UN report with all supporting evidence.

Links with Iran?? So you would prefer to support the Al-queeda than a legitimate government that has "links" with Iran? What has Iran done apart from its want to go further with the nuclear program??

And currently, we are helping al-queeda with our weapons and money, thats who we are helping.

You seem to have run out of any reasonable arguments but you just keep going cause you cant admit that your point of view does not stand a chance.

Since in your opinion common sense and our conspiracies are total bull-crap, you believe everything that comes out of Kerry`s gob?? Are you even serious? A government that completely falsified evidence on IRAQ, and that was the time when they actually provided it... Now they say "we have strong evidence" and then Kerry assured us that there is 0 al-queeda present in Syria, literally none... And thats the guy you believe... are you bonkers?
 
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Assad killed 1500 people with chemical weapons - haven't you heard?

So is Iran the nice one in the 'axis of evil'?

Currently Russia is helping Assad commit genocide with its weapons - what's your point?

You never had any 'reasonable arguments' just paranoid ramblings.

It's interesting how the US conspiracies have died a death now.

Plus you would have to be an idiot to think Assad would give up his weapons if he wasn't guilty of something related.
 
Assad killed 1500 people with chemical weapons - haven't you heard?

So is Iran the nice one in the 'axis of evil'?

Currently Russia is helping Assad commit genocide with its weapons - what's your point?

You never had any 'reasonable arguments' just paranoid ramblings.

It's interesting how the US conspiracies have died a death now.

Plus you would have to be an idiot to think Assad would give up his weapons if he wasn't guilty of something related.


Hey Mr Armchair General if your so desperate to do something based on shady evidence then why don't you march on over there and do something?

If the possibility presented itself I would imagine with your keen want to intervene in the shenanigans that is Syria you would go.

I imagine you would most likely say no how ever so why expect our boys and girls to risk there lives intervening in another foreign war which is buried in half truths and bad evidence.

NONE of these EU nations or the US really care about joe public in Syria its all back door politics.
 
Hey Mr Armchair General if your so desperate to do something based on shady evidence then why don't you march on over there and do something?

If the possibility presented itself I would imagine with your keen want to intervene in the shenanigans that is Syria you would go.

I imagine you would most likely say no how ever so why expect our boys and girls to risk there lives intervening in another foreign war which is buried in half truths and bad evidence.

NONE of these EU nations or the US really care about joe public in Syria its all back door politics.

He is beyond reasoning... just ignore him.
 
Assad killed 1500 people with chemical weapons - haven't you heard?

Nope, I've heard a bunch of politicians attempt to place blame with 0 evidence, but no word yet on who actually did it, just that the rebels are the most likely suspects. Hey maybe you did it? I have no proof other than the idea but hey if its good enough for the US :P


So is Iran the nice one in the 'axis of evil'?

Why do you even think Iran is evil? (apart from G W Bush saying so ofc), I'm interested to her the reasoning here :P (placing bets its due to some US propaganda he heard :P)


Currently Russia is helping Assad commit genocide with its weapons - what's your point?

Well that could be considered correct, if we changed the meaning of genocide ^^


You never had any 'reasonable arguments' just paranoid ramblings.

The phrase pot and kettle has never been more apt XD


Plus you would have to be an idiot to think Assad would give up his weapons if he wasn't guilty of something related.

Maybe guilty of being scared that it was the only thing that could stop a war mongering US government hell bent on attacking his country? per chance?
 

Same old bunk I'm afraid. The UN did not accuse Syrian rebels of using Sarin gas, a UN employee did - the UN actually distanced itself from her comments pretty quickly. The UN employee has form for making accusations e.g. accusing NATO of war crimes in Kosovo (strange how she always makes these accusations in conflicts where Russia is playing an active role and always on the Russian side). It's like that UN employee who accuses Britain of crimes against humanity because of introducing the Bedroom Tax, complete bunkum.
 
Same old bunk I'm afraid. The UN did not accuse Syrianin gas, a UN eme di http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/neth...-judgment-over-srebrenica-genocide-2013-09-06 e - the UN actually distanced itself from her comments pretty quickly. The UN employee has form for making accusations e.g. accusing NATO of war crimes in Kosovo (strange how she always makes these accusations in conflicts where Russia is playing an active role and always on the Russian side). It's like that UN employee who accuses Britain of crimes against humanity because of introducing the Bedroom Tax, complete bunkum.
When you say war crimes what do you actually mean...?

Nothing like Holland being held responsible for hundreds/ thousands of civilian deaths in Kosovo? See link in your quote (android is a pile of steaming **** and won't let me paste anywhere else...:rolleyes:)

As for lazders video about Georgia.... That doesn't look like they are trying to cover up anything... They cut to adverts and then come back to her and allow her to talk about it again... Looks more like they want her story heard but don't have time... Nothing to stop a good conspiracy though hey...;)
 
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