Tearing down statues

siezar · 23 Aug 2017 at 07:32

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...statues-nelsons-column-should-be-next-slavery

This is a trend hitting america right now and this writer is encouraging it on these shores. I'm sure 90% of the statues in Britain could be found offensive to someone somewhere so watch this space.

Sliver · 23 Aug 2017 at 07:53

Tearing down statues is the first step on a slippery slope to totalitarianism. It reminds me of the Nazis burning books or ISIS destroying ancient ruins. In a pluralist society like the ones we have in the West, you're never going to please all of the people all of the time but with tolerance you shouldn't need to. What are the tangible benefits to tearing down statues like those in the US? I honestly can only think of negatives.

EDIT: OP is this what you were trying to link to ? https://www.theguardian.com/comment...statues-nelsons-column-should-be-next-slavery

Terminal_Boy · 23 Aug 2017 at 07:55

The American Left have gone Full Year Zero.

lurkio · 23 Aug 2017 at 08:17

Don't think trying to hide history is a good idea

Rifte · 23 Aug 2017 at 08:25

Sliver said:
Tearing down statues is the first step on a slippery slope to totalitarianism. It reminds me of the Nazis burning books or ISIS destroying ancient ruins. In a pluralist society like the ones we have in the West, you're never going to please all of the people all of the time but with tolerance you shouldn't need to. What are the tangible benefits to tearing down statues like those in the US? I honestly can only think of negatives.

I couldn't agree more with you.

The other element that concerns me is the timing of it. These statues have been up there for a long time and all of a sudden they become an issue?

Tearing down statues isnt going to bury white supremacists. I dont see them as a trigger mechanism for racism and hatred either. I cant imagine that your average joe bloggs walks past these statues and after seeing them suddenly decides that he needs to put on his KKK hood and start preaching Neo-Nazi slogans. Its crazy.

In point it has the opposite effect.....tearing them down only galvanizes hatred and bigotry

Nasher · 23 Aug 2017 at 08:44

I think to troll the people getting them removed, they should replace them with statues of Trump.

Some people might not like who the statues represent, but it's a reminder from history. You can't just sweep it under the carpet because it's not P.C.

There are statues of Napoleon in France, but the modern French are definately not fans of his. He is still part of their history.

FortuitousFluke · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:00

A Country doesn't move away from its past by pretending it didn't happen. I can understand the whole tearing down statues of dictators thing that happens following an uprising, but the removal of colonial statues, confederate statues, or statues relating to figures who are historically significant but have chequered pasts shouldn't be undertaken lightly. At the end of the day people should be able to look at these statues and provide the context around them.

mmj_uk · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:05

It's all part of the lefts global agenda to erase all national identities, that's why they're trying so hard to equate nationalism with fascism and far right terrorism. Nationalism by itself is not dangerous but it's a threat to an increasingly centralised government on a worldwide scale.

Nasher · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:08

mmj_uk said:
It's all part of the lefts global agenda to erase all national identities, that's why they're trying so hard to equate nationalism with fascism and far right terrorism. Nationalism by itself is not dangerous but it's a threat to globalism.

TBH in the very big picture we do all need to be "one nation" eventually. We need to be just Earth and not split in to factions. But that won't happen in our lifetime.

Rotty · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:12

some nutter on Sky News yesterday saying that statue of Nelson should be taken down because of "bad things" in his past, might as well add the one of Mandela to that list too then :rolleyes:

Destination · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:13

siezar said:
://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree

This is a trend hitting america right now and this writer is encouraging it on these shores. I'm sure 90% of the statues in Britain could be found offensive to someone somewhere so watch this space.

Precisely, someone somewhere will find it offensive.
Take Norn Iron, there can't be many statues that won't offend almost 50% of the community, just randomly assign the 50%.
Know what? Live with it.

half of this American gubbins is just twaddle. Charles Barkley made a very interesting point, when he said that most folks have never once in their life thought about any statue anywhere.
The statue rubbish is just a hijacking for BS ideals.

Rifte · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:16

The only US statue that I have ever got emotional about the removal was the Rocky statue from the top of the Philadelphia Museum of Art.

To be fair though they did just move it away and more out of sight.....

lude1962 · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:18

She said monument in London's Trafalgar Square was a prime example of one which should be felled because Admiral Horatio Lord Nelson‎ defended slavery

The irony being the authors ancestors supplied the slaves.

McBain · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:22

Ridiculous.

cheesyboy · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:24

Sliver said:
Tearing down statues is the first step on a slippery slope to totalitarianism.

What if the statues were erected by totalitarian regimes?

What if the statues were erected as a rallying symbol of persecution, and are still held in such esteem by those thirsting for the furtherance of such persecution?

I'm still not sure tearing them down is necessarily the correct answer, but maybe a reinterpretation of said monuments is necessary so that we can remember the real history of both the person they celebrate and the reason the statue was erected.

Rifte said:
Tearing down statues isnt going to bury white supremacists. I dont see them as a trigger mechanism for racism and hatred either. I cant imagine that your average joe bloggs walks past these statues and after seeing them suddenly decides that he needs to put on his KKK hood and start preaching Neo-Nazi slogans. Its crazy.

In point it has the opposite effect.....tearing them down only galvanizes hatred and bigotry

If we take, for a moment, the US statues that sparked this. They were literally erected as a celebratory symbol of racism and hatred - the point of them was to intimidate and suppress the black population whilst elevating the whites. And they still act as a rallying point to those holding such views. Here in the UK we don't have such monuments (as far as I know) with quite such explicit, and recent, meaning, so it's harder to comprehend the issues in the US. It's also not necessarily correct to start to rethink our statues in the same way.

Shocky-FM · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:27

Yes, lets just brush history under the carpet.

It's ridiculous and shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Sliver · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:29

cheesyboy said:
What if the statues were erected by totalitarian regimes?

What if the statues were erected as a rallying symbol of persecution, and are still held in such esteem by those thirsting for the furtherance of such persecution?

Not interested in what if's sorry. I just commented on what is, that's all.

Rifte · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:30

cheesyboy said:
I'm still not sure tearing them down is necessarily the correct answer, but maybe a reinterpretation of said monuments is necessary so that we can remember the real history of both the person they celebrate and the reason the statue was erected.
If we take, for a moment, the US statues that sparked this. They were literally erected as a celebratory symbol of racism and hatred - the point of them was to intimidate and suppress the black population whilst elevating the whites. And they still act as a rallying point to those holding such views. Here in the UK we don't have such monuments (as far as I know) with quite such explicit, and recent, meaning, so it's harder to comprehend the issues in the US. It's also not necessarily correct to start to rethink our statues in the same way.

Unless I am completely wrong I am not aware of any issue with these statues before? If there were so 'offensive' and repugnant then surely they would have been attacked and pulled down before?

Why havent they?

Because its a movie moment, the flavour of the month, a knee jerk snap over reaction to something when if anyone thought logically about what the ultimate goal is here (to remove or mitigate white supremacists) then it is going to do anything but this.

White supremacists are not going to down tools because a statue has gone.......the opposite will occur.

PlacidCasual · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:30

Terminal_Boy said:
The American Left have gone Full Year Zero.

I couldn't agree more, the modern hard left in the UK as well as the US has more in common with the Mao and the Khmer Rouge in World view than Gandhi or King.

"Bring On the Cultural Revolution" :rolleyes:

cheesyboy · 23 Aug 2017 at 09:40

Sliver said:
Not interested in what if's sorry. I just commented on what is, that's all.

Well, at least there isn't any such thing as statues erected by totalitarian regimes, or for the purposes of being a rallying symbol for persecution, for us to consider the question as anything other than rhetorical.