Tearing down statues

Ah yes the insidious social engineering that has made us believe a slave owner responsible for the death of 19,000 people and movement of 60,000 others into servitude is wrong.

What fools we are.
 
dLockers said:
Ah yes the insidious social engineering that has made us believe a slave owner responsible for the death of 19,000 people and movement of 60,000 others into servitude is wrong.

What fools we are.
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Hah, and you said I was guilty of seeing things in black and white terms.

You are literally trying to define this argument as being pro- or anti-slavery.

In that case, you are a fool :p
 
The absolute state of the same people that frothed about the Rittenhouse verdict now saying "meh, jury said not guilty so whatever".
 
Ahleckz said:
Quite. People seem to think this is a recent thing. Though I'm amazed at @BowdonUK 's lack of knowledge of Britain's role in the slave trade. I was certainly taught it at school.

There have been debates around Colston in Bristol for decades. My mother attended the Colston Girls School and has been vocal about it for quite some time.
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I was taught more about the Tudor and Stuart eras of Britain, and about the coal mining history of Britain.

I can only think that you know about Colston because of your mother, unless you yourself lived in Bristol?

The point I was making in my post was for education so more people know about it, and that removing the statue completely like these people tried to do, would lead to less education and more ignorance about Britains role in slavery.

Tony Edwards said:
What do you mean we? Do you mean the people that defend statues like Colston or the ones that want them takn down because they no what they represent. If I have learned one thing about the british public is that those that constantly get offended by people complaining about racism is they havent bothered to read or understand our history. Those are the people that need to learn about our history not the ones that already know the history. And even after they know the reason they still defend it.
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At no point have I defended the activities of Colston or promoted slavery in any way. My point is that removing statues is removing one less source of information. The ideal outcome would have been for a plaque to have been put on it, or the second choice of putting it in a museum.

The reality is that back in his time slavery was acceptable by certain classes of people. Remember at the time these same people have superiority complexes over the poor working class people too that they were paying a pittance. I think some people, most notably those influenced by an American view, seem to think white people in Britain are all one homogeneous social block, which is far from the truth.

You seem to have a combative nature when we're both arguing on the same side, just by different routes. You seem to think removing the statue is a good thing because he was a bad person. While I'm saying it is better to have put a plaque on the statue then everytime people see the statue they would have read what he was like. Not everyone was a bookworm at school for history.
 
dLockers said:
It is the judges job to provide options to the jurors.

In this case, criminal damage was an option presented. It was deemed "non criminal" by the jurors because the statue represented abhorrent crimes against humanity.

Perhaps the legal boffins should retire to their chamber and come up with a morally justifiable form of criminal damage with appropriate sentencing. But if it is clearly morally justifiable then I'm unsure whether that passes the "in the publics interest" category.

This dude enslaved 80,000 people and was responsible for 10's of thousands of deaths. It was a crime the statue was allowed to stand anywhere other than a museum. In fact there was protests dating back to the 20's to remove it.
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What other statues don't you like?
 
Zefan said:
The absolute state of the same people that frothed about the Rittenhouse verdict now saying "meh, jury said not guilty so whatever".
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You see, it's not about the law, now, it's about morality.

I look forward to our glorious future, where the law is utterly discarded, and we judge according to the transient morality of a bunch of woke male prostitutes :p
 
FoxEye said:
Taken in the current societal context I'm not so sure.

We have people losing their jobs based on the ramblings of woke campaign groups on Twitter. People are often terrified of not towing this new line.

The (genuine) difficulty, and where I will admit I cannot be 100% sure, is in knowing how much this is the will of the people, and how much it is the will of a vocal minority, which the people acquiesce to for fear of harassment and the like.

If I'm a dinosaur and the new will of the people in 2022 is to adhere to all this woke nonsense, then I am indeed out of touch. But if this is not actually the will of the people, but rather a highly successful fringe group/opinion, then this kind of verdict represents a triumph of social engineering over justice.
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Did you see the names Sage Willoughby says it all really white middle class lefties who hate their own history and skin colour.
 
banbom44 said:
I think its sets a bad precedent you can go damage somebody else's property now and turn around and say its because it hurts your feelings.
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we cannot change our history and we should not stop teaching it because it might offend someone that did not even serve


Is it right what happened in the past no but everyone knows that

sadly we’re going to have a generation of people that will really struggle in the real world when they don’t get a job promotion because there face simply don’t fit and no protests will change that
 
BowdonUK said:
You seem to have a combative nature when we're both arguing on the same side, just by different routes. You seem to think removing the statue is a good thing because he was a bad person. While I'm saying it is better to have put a plaque on the statue then everytime people see the statue they would have read what he was like. Not everyone was a bookworm at school for history.
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Funny you should mention the plaque. Over the past few years, whilst the council and the society of merchant ventures were both denying owning the statue and saying therefore it couldn’t be taken down legally, the merchant ventures agreed to having a plaque attached, only to then refuse to allow anything critical of Colston be on the plaque when the time came.

It turned out the society of merchant ventures had their hand in preventing the removal the whole time, and when it came to personally naming and shaming the individuals who put pressure on the council both financially and legally to keep it up by telling them to say it couldn’t be taken down because the council didn’t own it (a lie) all the while agreeing that it should come down towards the end but that it was impossible, as soon as it got taken down, suddenly “oh yes it was ours we were technically the victim of criminal damage” (hence the 4 having a legal defence of it didn’t belong to anyone according to all the paper work therefore wasn’t criminal damage). The Merchant Ventures in Bristol have now completely reversed, apologising for not letting it get taken down, and agreed it should have come down legally when it was overwhelmingly requested to do so, and that all the insidious people who kept it up have now retired.
 
banbom44 said:
Never heard of him before old Georgie boy Floyd i bet you hadn't either that's the problem with Britain too many people think they are American for some reason.
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Maybe keep your opinions to yourself then if you admit you were too ignorant of the issue to even have heard of the guy.
 
fredwi said:
we cannot change our history and we should not stop teaching it because it might offend someone that did not even serve


Is it right what happened in the past no but everyone knows that

sadly we’re going to have a generation of people that will really struggle in the real world when they don’t get a job promotion because there face simply don’t fit and no protests will change that
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Honestly, where did you guys go to school that featured statues so heavily as the means of learning? :cry::cry::cry:
 
fredwi said:
we cannot change our history and we should not stop teaching it because it might offend someone that did not even serve


Is it right what happened in the past no but everyone knows that

sadly we’re going to have a generation of people that will really struggle in the real world when they don’t get a job promotion because there face simply don’t fit and no protests will change that
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You could say tear down the Colosseum it glorified slavery but the lefties would laugh and say how far back are you going but you could turn round and say well if Colston's statue was 2000 years old would it have been ok.
 
Zefan said:
The absolute state of the same people that frothed about the Rittenhouse verdict now saying "meh, jury said not guilty so whatever".
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Is it the same people? I sure didn't post anything in that Rittenhouse thread (about the incident itself, seem to recall saying something general about guns being bad)
 
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