*** The 2017 Gym Rats Thread ***

You could counter that 3x5 is typically done at a higher intensity/% of 1RM than 5x5 though, which places different demands on the lifter and that 5x5 = more reps per session = more practice at the lift = get better at it quicker. If your form is cack by the 5th set you're trying to move too much weight and would be better off reducing weight on the bar so that you can complete every rep with at least acceptable form before overloading further. It's something everyone is probably guilty of at some point in their lifting career; you got max reps on a given exercise/load and ignore the fact it was sloppy and stick more on next time rather than being strict and not allowing too much form degredation.

Also if your solution is to just lift even less reps by dropping to 3x5 your work capacity is going to go down, which is the opposite of what you need to progress beyond the beginner stages. 5x5 is hardly high volume when you compare it to other programs on a per-body-part basis too (especially upper body). Don't forget the 5's programs are largely derived from on-the-side strength work for American athletes who already had a high training workload and while something like Texas Method can work for intermediates, the more modern evidence-informed periodised approaches like DUP or block periodisation seem to work WAY better... (something even actual SS coaches concede if you peruse the Starting Strength forums).

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/m...aining-routine-more-effective-two-quick-tips/
http://masterbenchpress.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/beginner-and-intermediate-lifters-need.html

The issue with SS vs SL the way I see it, is about taking advantage of the much quicker rate of adaptation of a rank novice. While 5x5 puts a greater stress on the body and should produce a greater rate of adaptation, it also must be done with a lower weight. Greater volume can have all sorts of benefits, such is increased fat loss, and greater boost in hormone response etc. However, one must also consider the rate of recovery in a novice is much lower, especially when they begin to push their capacity for linear growth. This is most likely what is happening with Giraffe. All other things being equal, SS provides the novice with the chance to remain on the path of linear growth for a longer period than SL will. The last consideration is the increased rate of injury that comes with failing form, which (although I have no statistics to hand), it is logical to assume, will be exacerbated by higher volume.

Intermediate training programs start becoming a whole lot more complex, and is really beyond the scope of what I wanted to discuss with Giraffe. It's also something I'm not hugely 'read up' on (beyond the scope of Rippetoe's books), so I wouldn't want to start talking rubbish!
 
Well I'm not planning on giving up on SL right now.

Got my 5x5 @ 80Kg this morning.
I would say that I think there might be something off about my form towards the end though, once I'd re racked and was walking about my lower back on one side felt strained.
Went away after a couple of mins, but makes me think something's inbalanced

Any assistance exercises for the back people can suggest?
 
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Well I'm not planning on giving up on SL right now.

Got my 5x5 @ 80Kg this morning.
I would say that I think there might be something off about my form towards the end though, once I'd re racked and was walking about my lower back on one side felt strained.
Went away after a couple of mins, but makes me think something's inbalanced

Any assistance exercises for the back people can suggest?

As a beginner (I mean no offence by this), you're still naturally imbalanced. If you try targeting certain areas to alleviate this you may end up doing more damage than good. Doing 5x5 with SL will help fix all these imbalances.

If your lower back is strained on one side, it's either the presence of a muscular imbalance, or you're actually not holding the bar central. Or your technique needs work.
 
Maybe all three? :p

My main things I'm working on are keeping my damn chest up (I'm terrible for looking at my feet) and holding my bracing.
I've felt better after the squats where I was confident I got that right
 
Maybe all three? :p

My main things I'm working on are keeping my damn chest up (I'm terrible for looking at my feet) and holding my bracing.
I've felt better after the squats where I was confident I got that right

You don't need to keep your chest or eyes up when squatting; in fact it can be dangerous. You look wherever your head naturally points with a neutral spine. Looking up will almost certainly cause a part of your back to go into hyperextension. Even with a high bar squat, or a front squat at most you should be looking horizontally. Here's a video that covers it.

 
Well, I'm meaning keeping it up in terms of not staring at my feet (I want to check my knees are out and feet right :p )

I feel I've got my eyes pointed in the right direction, though, maybe closer to the horizontal side.
If you can stomach someone squatting in boxers this is from this morning: https://youtu.be/NqtfP5DlZQ0

Your head position looks ok for the type of squat you're doing, although it's hard to tell from that angle. The big problem is that you're doing a high bar squat, instead of a low bar squat. The bar should be resting under the spine of the scapulae, on the posterior deltoid, not your traps. Also, your grip is a problem. The back of your hand and your forearm should be in alignment; that is to say, your wrist should not be bent. I used to grip like that until I got to about 120 kg +, at which point I started to get really intense pain on the inside of my elbow. So I read up and realised this was the beginnings of tennis elbow caused by my forearms trying to support a load they're simply incapable of supporting. The purpose of your grip is to pin the bar to your back, your back supports the weight. Here's some more videos:



On the second video, if you look at 2:00 that is perfect.
 
From what I can see, you've got a low bar squat, but the bar is placed high.

high-bar-vs-low-bar-squats.jpg


You appear to be the one on the right. Should place the bar a little lower down your back, onto the rear of your delts.
 
Why is that a problem?

Both are perfectly valid types of squat but accomplish different goals. Firstly, a high bar squat allows greater depth, but puts far more emphasis on the quads. Low bar squat recruits a lot more posterior chain, allows greater weight (hence why most powerlifters use it), and promotes the 'hip draahve'. Low bar is better for beginners for a number of reasons. Typically hamstrings and glutes are a weakness in novices, high bar simply papers over the cracks. The greater muscle recruitment boosts hormone response, promoting faster/better adaptation.

Of course there are other arguments; personally I just like moving more weight.

Edit:

Another caveat is that high bar squat would be a useful tool to bridge the gap between low bar and front squat. Something I'm planning on doing in the near future as I'm planning on joining a weightlifting club!
 
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Hmm, I thought I was doing more of a high bar squat, hence why it's that high.
I suppose I could try intentionally low bar'ing I just didn't want to essentially start from the beginning learning a new lift.

Keep the weight the same and just place the bar a little lower down your back. You should actually find it a little easier once you get used to it because you'll have less torque pushing your heading to the ground.
 
In your picture comparing high and low bar squatting:
That bar is not over his midfoot, it's way out over the toes.

That just due to having no weight on the bar? Because AFAIK that's wrong
 
Both are perfectly valid types of squat but accomplish different goals. Firstly, a high bar squat allows greater depth, but puts far more emphasis on the quads. Low bar squat recruits a lot more posterior chain, allows greater weight (hence why most powerlifters use it), and promotes the 'hip draahve'. Low bar is better for beginners for a number of reasons. Typically hamstrings and glutes are a weakness in novices, high bar simply papers over the cracks. The greater muscle recruitment boosts hormone response, promoting faster/better adaptation.

Of course there are other arguments; personally I just like moving more weight.

Edit:

Another caveat is that high bar squat would be a useful tool to bridge the gap between low bar and front squat. Something I'm planning on doing in the near future as I'm planning on joining a weightlifting club!

Studies have shown muscle recruitment isn't significantly different between the two, the ability to lift more weight mostly comes down to the fact that you're shortening the distance from the barbell to the hip (decreasing the lever arm length) and the ROM is shorter, which makes equivalent loads easier (to squat at least, it's definitely harder on the wrists, elbows and shoulders). Low bar is better for beginners according to the very vocal Mark Rippetoe.

The ability to move more weight is largely unimportant unless it's in a situation/context where moving more weight matters (like a powerlifting 1RM attempt); you can amass equivalent training volume for your legs all sorts of ways and despite never training the low bar squat or training to maximise their 1RM, we know professional weightlifters could easily crush a lot of the raw powerlifting squat records if they were ever that way inclined (they aren't). Even a lot of elite powerlifting places like JTS don't have their athletes even use low bar until later in the training cycle as they transition into strength/taper/peak for a meet, just because high bar (executed properly) is easier to recover from/less stressful on the CNS, more specific for leg strength and has a lower injury risk. High bar builds low bar, low bar does not build high bar, high bar to build leg strength, low bar to express it are quite a common statements too.

Hormonal response between any one exercise is insignificant in terms of adaptation. Resistance training in general is key, and getting better at any one lift mostly comes down to practice, so someone only squatting once a week won't improve at it as quickly both in terms of technique and progressive overload as someone who squats three times a week.

I'd argue most people have weak everything when they start and if anything when watching other people squat, they usually dump the load to the posterior chain on the concentric (knees shift back, hips shoot up) because their quads aren't strong enough coming out of the hole, since the combination of hamstrings, glutes and low back can easily overpower them in any squat variation as there's more total muscle there, and the body will always unconsciously revert to what it feels is the easiest position to move a load, even if it isn't necessarily the best or safest way to get a load from A to B.
 
Strong arguments!
Tbh, I'm just looking to get my squats to be a proper something, be that high or low bar variation.
As long as I'm doing it as correctly as possible.
So if I'm mostly doing a low bar squat, just with a high bar position, surly it's best to try for a proper low bar no?
 
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