THE 50K CHALLENGE: NEW MUSTANG ON THE WAY, BUT WOULD 50K BE BETTER SPENT ON ANOTHER MARQUE?

[Gibbo]

Yea I guess so, I'm just surprised it's not in the 3's with that power. My car is 130 hp down (or a typical family car) and that does it around 4 secs (although basic 4wd) and the m4s I've been looking at with similar power, do it in the same time.

Probably just the trans, M4 has very quick trans and good launch control if it hooks up.

My mates Mustang has 800HP, his best 0-60 is 4.5s, whereas my Golf with half the power will beat him every time to 60 without trying, beyond 80 though its different story I get left like I am not moving. As fast as the Golf is 0-60 or say 30-80 I do miss the shear acceleration and thrill of acceleration the Mustang had, it felt so much stronger, particular on say a 50-100 pull, reality is probably no faster but the Golf feels very dull in roll acceleration, even though its not slow, but there is no thrill about it, probably a lot to do with lack of noise, turbo power range and seamless gear shifts.

 

[Gibbo]

Then on your gravestone it would say “Gibbo the man who rinsed


Hold on 4.5s to 60 from 800bhp?! I had to read that twice.

Yes and under 5s is hard, when you have 800HP hitting the back wheels through a manual gear box what do you expect? Its hardly any quicker than a bone stock Mustang to 60, and the new Mustang with 460HP is far quicker than his to 60. Unfortunately so few people just look at 0-60 and summarise it as the true performance statistic for a car where in reality and day to day driving it really means nothing. The best statistic is really 30-130mph but is a stat generally not done as such next best is quarter mile and look at the trap speed, as trap speed really tells you how strong a car is rolling.

Perfect example, Kosta I think ran a 12.4@107 in his Scoob, I was running circa 13.5@113 in my Mustang, so the Scoob is faster, yet accelerating from a roll on the motorway the Mustang walked it. Hence look at the trap/terminal speeds and is why GTR is so good because they don't only just have low ET's from great traction but they also trap around 125mph too, meaning a GTR will pretty much hand most cars their ass from any situation, dig, roll, 100+ etc.

Or my mates Mustang 12.4@130mph compared to my Golf's 12.2@117mph, so my Golf must be quicker, yet on the motorway I did not see which way he had gone, the difference was not even close at high speed acceleration.

 

[Gibbo]

Problem with Golf Rs is they are everywhere now. So not really something special. It's car for people who want to blend in but also want something fast.

You can't beat a good RWD coupe or drop top for something that just feels right and hits the spot. Especially when it makes the right noises. You don't need to drive it fast

I'd argue it was not special even when brand new, it is just a Golf, looks dull and sounds boring, the DSG fart is the only noise I look forward too. Its a fantastic road car, its stupid quick and its quite good handling, not crazy understeer like its Audi counterparts, no idea what VW did, but even then its still just an A-B car, it really has no sense of occasion or theatre.

Just starting the Mustang did make me grin like crazy, but that is more a V8 thing, well a car with a good loud V8 anyway.

 

[Gibbo]

Gibbo, what did you think of that F-Type I linked to?

This one: ???
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201710240601546?fuel-type=Petrol&postcode=st87hf&year-from=2010&zero-to-60=TO_5&price-to=65000&sort=sponsored&price-from=30000&colour=Orange&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=New&maximum-mileage=25000&transmission=Automatic&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

If so I have dropped them an email, very interested in one like that, right colour, nice big wing, always a good thing in my book and it is AWD so can put the power down, I loved my Mustang for its sense of occaison and only disliked it being a manual and somewhat unpredictable in wet, I know an F-Type is not a 911/Cayman handling wise but its got an auto which I want and the AWD should make it some what more predictable in typical British wet weather whilst still be a big fun factor car.

A Jag before I am 40 though? Wait I did own an S-Type some years ago.

 

[Gibbo]

That one is a little over budget, no?Buy it anyway, it looks great!

The one I linked wasnt AWD, but was £10k cheaper.

Jag before 40? Well, I've got a Morgan before 40!

For the right car I can move the budget a little, also got a contact a Jaguar as a friend of a friend is high up there, so they are going to try and help me out, so could be a nice little discount on a Jaguar too. The discount on new is really big, but I am not buying new as the depreciation on new F-types is absolutely mental, these cars are 2-3yr old and were around 100k and now they are already 55-65k which is quite scary.

I feel brand new Mustang will lose 7-10k in first 12 months, a 2-3yr F-type I feel will be be around 5k a year now loss from where they currently sit, as such a little less. But depreciation is a total guess, but I can't see new Mustang holding its money anywhere near as well as the 2015's did, also with a Mustang I will end up spending close to £10,000 on it easily messing around, an F-type like the Golf is pretty sorted out the box, I will still fiddle a little maybe but any spend will probably be 1-2k in mods if that at all. It is fair to say a new Mustang will owe me £60,000 by the time I finish with it and if I sold it a year later would get like 40k, so 20k gone.

Though the above is complete man maths, as such there is no science involved, just finger in air.

Anyway going to try and sort test drives in a RWD again and then drive an AWD, see what I think. My first time in a RWD F-type was sometime ago, it was a rag top and Pzero and it was shall we say lively on the rear and the TC light really preventing full throttle in 2nd and 3rd gear in dry, a little annoying. I suspect RWD newer R ones is same, so I think if I go for one will have to be AWD. I doubt even mighty Michelins could tame an F-type R, it just seems very poor at putting power down. I might drive them again and think total junk, hence need to drive these things.

I keep looking at Hellcats, but if I am worried about an F-type for putting its power down, I guess that does not even come close to a Hellcat trying to deploy its power on a bumpy British road.

 

[Gibbo]

That red one isn’t AWD. I can tell by the dash cluster isn’t the later 5” TFT with much higher resolution. It won’t have been close to 100k either.

A 3 sec F Type is hard work it’s not a sprinty car, it doesn’t have a enough front bias torque, its quite long geared it’s too heavy and the rear axle is a bit old hat. The roll on mid range is incredible though and that’s the thrill on the road.

Gonna drive both RWD and AWD, see how they compare, interesting your thoughts on AWD, makes it sound not a very good car? Price wise I was just looking at configurator and they start at 93k plus options, hence the 100k guess.

 

[Gibbo]

The red would have taken £5k off for not AWD. Prices have move around at MY16 as the V8 entry got loaded up and standard AWD.

I must have gave wrong tone. AWD is ace, makes it a useable road car. Just justifying the perception of “slow” looking at 0-60.

Ah got you, not too fussed about 0-60, just as long as it can be consistent and sub 4s really, but roll on mid-range acceleration is far more fun, booting a car at 30 upto 100 is great fun, what I enjoy along with chucking around corners as you know.

 

[Gibbo]

'Not too fussed about 0-60'

'as long as its sub 4s'

Well I did not say sub 3s

Must say raining tonight, wet roads and that Golf on the PS4 tyres can corner so hard and on the limits its superb, really a car that handles great when pushed so hard, really impressive and really is a mini GTR but I'd say easier to drive on limits due to its smaller size.

 

[Gibbo]

One of the best things linked so far I think.

Driven one before, felt it had same issue, lack of traction and the balance was not as good as the F-type or Mustang.

Am going to Jaguar now to collect an F-type for the day.

 

[Gibbo]

Hi there

Handed the Jag back, some photos:

Car was a V6S RWD, 380HP, don't really know the rest, feels more like 300HP though to be honest, though its not slow, anyway let me evaluate:


Power: Not enough for me, sure its not a slow car, but any decent hot hatch, Focus RS, Golf R, Audi S3 is going to be close to it in a straight line, it does need some more go go juice, I am putting this down to simply how heavy they are, how do Jag make an all ally car that weighs 1700kg??? The engine is very civilised how it deploys power, seems happiest around 2500-6000rpm area, its not a hugely rev happy engine and it pulls just in a linear fashion, no real appreciable top end surge.

Noise: Best sounding V6 I have heard, I put like £70 in the car and probably did only about 100 miles maximum, I discovered that just lifting in 2nd and 3rd around 4500rpm just results in what sounds like gunshots from the rear, the pops, cackles, bangs and gargles on upshifts are simply AMAZING, in a tunnel or again walls, wow and then at full chat and down shifts, really is a great sounding machine.

Gearbox: I think its a ZF8 but cleared tweaked by Jag and WOW, there is zero complaint it is absolute ace, super quick, super responsive, my only complaint is even in manual mode and dynamic the car still upshifts, I'd rather it just hit the limiter and let me do it myself. But has to be the best full automatic I have experienced and though I am sure DSG/PDK is quicker, this is more fun, it even does the little kick up your ass on upshifts like an M-DCT, really liked that. So again superb box!

Looks: It is a proper sexy car, its also hilariously wide and it seems to get a lot of looks from the ladies, but I don't think it has quite the road presence though, but hard to judge but its a great looker.

Handling: Fun fun fun, the car is clearly setup to be playful because in the dry in track mode and dynamic that rear end is wagging everywhere, but it is so progressive and the balance is amazing, it is very neutral, really mild understeer on limit which some throttle gives you really progressive oversteer absolutely beautiful balance. This makes it superb fun even at low speeds and combined with sound it really makes you grin. Now the downside, grip........

Grip: As much as I love fun handling, it is nice to be able to simply go silly fast and feel very confident in the chassis at higher speeds, particular long sweeping corners under full throttle. The car almost feels as it the rear is in the air a bit as such its not truly confident inspiring to properly push it hard in faster higher speed corners, the Mustang felt better here as does the M3, on the flip side any loss of traction is extremely progressive and I never felt like oh my god, I am going to die. But I would like it to have a more planted feeling and more confident inspiring for those moments where I want to drive a road flat out and have confidence in car to do so, maybe the AWD will help here? Putting the car in track mode and suspension to normal does improve grip, as such I found to attack a road best to put into normal, DSC in track and exhaust on loud, rear-end then felt more planted under full throttle on 2nd/3rd gear corner exits, but the higher speed stuff still felt not too confidence inspiring, so really hoping AWD helps this.

Steering: At first I disliked it, over assisted but I forgot about it after an hour or so and came to like it, precise and enough feel.

Brakes: Also over assisted but they work fine, but you can feel the cars mass under braking.


OVERALL: I would say if you more about enjoying the drive, the sound, the looks and don't want to drive say beyond 8/10's and need insane acceleration the F-Type V6S RWD is a superb car and huge amounts of driving pleasure, its a very entertaining car at low speeds which I'd say many modern cars now lack. But for me I want that playfulness but I also want the car to feel locked down and planted even at high speeds, I also need a lot more mid-range and top-end power. These two shortfalls could indeed be covered of by a V8 AWD, if they are I suspect Mustang order will be cancelled, but I am in Vegas next month for a couple of weeks and I am going to do my best to get an A10 Mustang Performance Pack to drive.

Any questions just ask, but I think I covered most parts.

 

[Gibbo]

haha that guy filling up dont look impressed.

I think I upset a lot of people with the pops and bangs today or it just creates a bit of jealousy, though when I got in the car he smiled. Thing is this does good noise and pops, bangs etc, so the V8 must be god like.

 

[Gibbo]

Now do as I told you.

Dump the budget, cancel the Mustang, get some finances and go test an R8 V10 Plus Mk2.

For 100K which is where you can get them now, it is simply different league and I think ticks all of your boxes!!!!

Well except the 50K one but number shmumbers

Hearing you loud and clear, shall see what I can find and go have a go, as will be interesting to see how the power delivery between the V8 jag and R8 V10 compare, driven the V10 and its linear and just pulls from any point and pulls harder as the revs climb and how as much larger power band.

 

[Gibbo]

think the mustang looks better than the jag.
R8 do it

Yes I look at orange fury 2018 Mustangs and then firesand Jag F-types, both look amazing but the Mustang does have more presence I'd absolutely agree.

 

[Gibbo]

It will blow your hollocks off.

I've driven an early manual V10, lovely how it revs and pulls from as low as 2000rpm and just keeps going. Being a passenger in yours and with the S-tronic felt mighty quick.

Only downside for me on the R8 its a bit too planted, you gotta go pretty quick in it I feel because of how capable it is. The V8 Jag might have a bit more of V8 hot rod yanky muscle feel to it.

 

[Gibbo]

That spoiler, that splitter, that hood scoop, absolutely. Probably similar wheels too, not so sure on the wide body TT arches though and I prefer orange.
But yes Mustang generally looks better than most cars on the road, its simply got more presence and is very unique.

 

[Gibbo]

I like the Jag, more I see them more I like them but needs to be the right one. That Stang above looks good and Gibbo is a Stang man. Not my sort of car, but neither is the GTR and neither was the R8 based on the ones I drove at first. V10 Plus changed that, right balanced of special/event/pace. All this shows is I have no idea like Gibbo.

Mal X, what would you (probably never EVER) do in our situation?

I am guessing from his silence, one of the Don's change the locks to this forum and did not give him the new pass code.

 

[Gibbo]

Well means he will have time to go buy his Evo I guess.

Thought he was buying a GT500 from some dodgy guy in the USA.

 

[Gibbo]

Similar feelings to me on the v6 f-type.

Loved the noise and had a lot of fun going sideways... but needs the power of the v8

You driven the V8 AWD mate?

 

[Gibbo]

Another note... did you check what tyres the Jag had on? I think mine had Pirellis... there's a good chance better boots like MPSS / PS4 would improve it dramatically.

Yes Pzero, they handled like Pzero, ZERO grip.

Bloody 295's on the rear too, a lot of tyre.

Good comments on gearbox, it is good and well mannered at low speed. S and dynamic should prevent upshift.

Grip too although today is horrible, I had the CRZ step out but F type does feel like you are aware, that said so does the XKRS once passed 1/4 lock on the wheel you know you have to be careful on the throttle.

AWD makes it so much more deployable and fun and V8 is simply another league of speed. It’s eveuthing else I like as I never feel concerned about the braking capability and a lot of work goes into getting the brake feel and progression right.

Had the gear box over the left all the time, so it said S on dash and then I used paddles, tried it in snow, normal and dynamic, but it always upshifted around 6500rpm by itself if I did not pull paddle in time, thankfully however unlike the Golf it never seemed to double upshift when you pull the paddle just as the gearbox goes to do it. Maybe I needed traction fully off, as I drove everywhere in track DSC. Found DSC way to intervening and it was not my car so not going fully off on a public road, but the track DSC seemed fantastic it really allowed some good slip angles.

 

[Gibbo]

No, the older V8 RWD model... The V8S I think it's called... which had a little bit less power at just under 500bhp.

I've driven the higher tuned version in the XKR-S... very similar engine.

There's a similar linearity to the power delivery, just more there. That lightness of the rear was still there... go anywhere near planting the power in the middle or exit of the corner and the rear end will slide... it was a heck of a lot of fun as it's a brilliant engine (better than the v6)... but not confidence inspiring for sure. I didn't feel like I needed more power with the V8... with the V6S even though it had more than enough power and a great diff for sliding whenever you wanted it... it always left me wanting more. The amazing noise of the V6S certainly made up for it though, one of the best sounding cars I've heard.

I'm sure AWD would help a lot... I'm just not a big fan of AWD... the only AWD car I like is the 911 as it felt more like a RWD car than the RWD 911... but that was most likely due to it having an LSD at the rear as standard. Not a big fan of open diff RWD 911s. Haven't had the chance to drive a 911 RWD with LSD. It's possible the AWD F-Type has a similar system to the 911 though, so it could be good.

I don't rate the interior of the F-Type very highly... it's got a nice aesthetic and the passenger panic handle on the transmission tunnel made every passenger giggle.

I find the switching gear, buttons on the steering wheel and flappy paddles rather tacky (Golf type quality)... with the plastic paddles a bit unpleasant.

I had the V6S for about 2 months or so... took it to a track day... when you're going for it, the relatively flat seats mean you and your passengers move around in the car a lot and it can get tiring really quickly. Also the infotainment system seems good at first, but after a little bit of use it's underwhelming... I also found the sound system to be a let down - I was expecting more from a relatively expensive vehicle.

I'll push you back to the C63S again (I was eyeing up lease deals on them today)... some of the plasticy buttons are still a bit poor compared to the likes of BMW or more expensive cars... but the Burrmeister sound system in that car is sublime and everything from the steering wheel to the seats feel really good and hug you really well. Even though the selection wheel is annoying to use unless you have triple jointed wrists, it works really well and is almost as good as the BMW system now.

I also think that 4.0TT is better than the Jag 5.0S from the fun side... the Jag V8 has more low down grunt, but the Merc V8 really loves to rev and it revs fast.

The Jag gearbox is decent, but even that feels a little laggy compared to the one in the Merc... I genuinely thought the Merc was a DCT until I started asking questions about it.

Gear ratios are better in the Merc too... had the C63S on track too and the gearing in 2nd and 3rd was perfect... whereas I found myself hitting the rev limit in 2nd in the Jag at the wrong times.

Try and get an extended test in the Merc, you won't regret it. The C63S was the first car in a while that I needed a few days to learn how to get the best from it and trust it... it'll happilly light up the rear tyres, almost as easily as the V8 Jag... it just feels a bit more under your control.

The M4 doesn't feel like it has much more power than the V6 Jag... but the M4 engine is more playful. But of the three, the M4 has the worst sound. Comp pack makes it better... but you have to go aftermarket if you really want to enjoy the noise.

I'm pretty much set on C63S as my next car, so I'm probably biased... going to wait and see what end of quarter or end of MY lease deals pop up.

Drove an XKR-S some years back, they look nice, but I could not get on with it, the rear-end was just too lose, it never felt planted, Mustang even my old live axle one seemed to handle better and have more grip and that had 600HP. Maybe its Jag DNA, drifto machine.

More everywhere sounds good, I just like a car that punches hard and pins you in the seat and the power just keeps on building and building, the V6S though it went, felt a little flat, I think the engine is fine, just the car is a bit too heavy for it to feel like it pulls your face off, same power in my M3 for example and the M3 feels like a rocket ship in comparison both feel but is also much quicker in a straight line as I did try a few of my favourite land mark speed test on my drive.

Interior for me was fine, I am coming from a Mustang which I also felt was fine, though I will say the infotainment (NAV) and dials are not as clear or easy to use as those in Mustang, but I find interior gimmicks are a once time use, I am more interested in how it drives. But can see where you coming from, for me the Mustang has better audio/infotainment system and customisation, but I just see such things as a bonus, interior as long as its nice place to be is enough for me and when you have a V8 a sound system is not needed. Never used it in the Mustang!

The F-type I drove today, the paddles were amazing, they were metal and made loud clicks, fantastic paddles, I would say steering wheels is a touch to big though, made getting sideways from junctions not the easiest.

Will look at C63's, am hoping the V8 Jag does like to rev though, did feel the V6S was a bit flat up top which was a shame and is a huge plus of the Mustang with it holding peak power upto 7500rpm makes it a great engine to rev out that has great response down low too.

No complaints on gearbox, I found it fantastic, I am sure its not as quick as my DSG, but it feels more fun and I am not going to worry over it shifting 100ms slower when it goes the gargles, trumps, burps and proper slams you on an upshift, that is more important for me, something which DSG does not do.

Driven enough M4's I simply can't get on with the power plant, sorry I just find M4's boring, that will upset Fox because yes they are epic fast, but just all feels very meh whilst doing it.

Got more metal to check out yet, but a V8 R AWD could be the one.