The All Things IR35 Related Thread

Hades said:
I'm not a contractor but I did see the impact it had on my industry when they introduced it (Financial IT). To avoid the risk of classifying contractors incorrectly many companies simply stopped employing them and tried to convert them to permies. Where people wouldn't convert to lower paid permanent roles the jobs were moved to India.

So when Kamikwazi announced the repeal I thought it was a great idea and likely to spark growth in the contract market again. As I am between jobs it even got me thinking about contracting. Sadly now the repeal has been reinstated I see lots of hopes dashed and an opportunity for growth in that sector thrown away.
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My auntie operates outside of IR35 but her "employer" still tries to treat her as if she works within IR35. She games it to the max (as she doesn't really need the cash), only working when she choses to lol.

I witnessed the same thing though - lots of contractors disappeared. But in all fairness, they were definitely not contractors by the usual definition (10+ years in the same role etc..). They'd also furlough them every year for 2 weeks to correct the FTE/headcount numbers.
 
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dLockers said:
I witnessed the same thing though - lots of contractors disappeared. But in all fairness, they were definitely not contractors by the usual definition (10+ years in the same role etc..). They'd also furlough them every year for 2 weeks to correct the FTE/headcount numbers.
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That is taking the ****
 
dLockers said:
I witnessed the same thing though - lots of contractors disappeared. But in all fairness, they were definitely not contractors by the usual definition (10+ years in the same role etc..). They'd also furlough them every year for 2 weeks to correct the FTE/headcount numbers.
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Yes I've seen the same many times over the years. Contractors working at banks, for example, for a decade. Those people were definitely disguised employees. Unfortunately the net result of it, and the government reacting to it, was to decimate the genuine contractor market and move jobs overseas. I keep thinking there must have been a better way to recoup the lost tax on disguised employees that didn't kill the market and reduce flexibility for businesses.
 
I've also worked with permitractors spanning years in the same role. Has anyone ever heard of them being reported or caught out? Not sure how that works.
 
jaybee said:
I've also worked with permitractors spanning years in the same role. Has anyone ever heard of them being reported or caught out? Not sure how that works.
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I don't think HMRC has the resources now to chase them down, one of many budget cuts most likely!
 
jaybee said:
I've also worked with permitractors spanning years in the same role. Has anyone ever heard of them being reported or caught out? Not sure how that works.
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Working for years in and of itself does not mean they are a disguised employee, it is dependent on their working practices
 
Bear said:
Working for years in and of itself does not mean they are a disguised employee, it is dependent on their working practices
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Let me pick one that works where I do. IT role.

They attend organised company events and social gatherings.
They report to a line manager which is the same as many employees who completely dictates what that persons work is, how, where and when it is done and to what time.
They have to abide by the exact same SLAs as employees and are not doing project work. They cover BAU requests and general day to day tickets and have seemingly endless work available.
They have rigid fixed working hours and location set by the employer, to which they cover a shift pattern.
They use all company facilities and equipment in the same way employees do and attend company update meetings about how well the company is doing.
 
jaybee said:
Let me pick one that works where I do. IT role.

They attend organised company events and social gatherings.
They report to a line manager which is the same as many employees who completely dictates what that persons work is, how, where and when it is done and to what time.
They have to abide by the exact same SLAs as employees and are not doing project work. They cover BAU requests and general day to day tickets and have seemingly endless work available.
They have rigid fixed working hours and location set by the employer, to which they cover a shift pattern.
They use all company facilities and equipment in the same way employees do and attend company update meetings about how well the company is doing.
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As I said, its dependent on working practices. That person clearly fails on quite a few of the rules HMRC set out for disguised employees. That still doesnt counter what I said
 
Bear said:
As I said, its dependent on working practices. That person clearly fails on quite a few of the rules HMRC set out for disguised employees. That still doesnt counter what I said
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It doesn't look good though if you get investigated and you've been working for the same client for multiple years in a row with no other ones. But yeah technically, it isn't a breach in itself.
 
jaybee said:
It doesn't look good though if you get investigated and you've been working for the same client for multiple years in a row with no other ones. But yeah technically, it isn't a breach in itself.
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Agreed, it doesnt look good but so long as you can prove that you dont fall foul of Direction and Control, MOO and have a genuine Right of Substitution and not become part and parcel of the company then as you say, technically there isnt a breach despite working at a place for years
 
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Bear said:
Agreed, it doesnt look good but so long as you can prove that you dont fall foul of Direction and Control, MOO and have a genuine Right of Substitution and not become part and parcel of the company then as you say, technically there isnt a breach despite working at a place for years
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Yeah I've always wondered about the substitution thing. Given that 99% of all contractors that I have known have worked alone as part of their limited company, not one of them could have genuinely provided substitution ever, so how does that work? Say you get ill? Is it only a problem if you get investigated or is there some loop hole I am unaware of, like the right to find a substitute within reasonable time, but then terminate your contract with said client or whatever?
 
jaybee said:
Yeah I've always wondered about the substitution thing. Given that 99% of all contractors that I have known have worked alone as part of their limited company, not one of them could have genuinely provided substitution ever, so how does that work? Say you get ill? Is it only a problem if you get investigated or is there some loop hole I am unaware of, like the right to find a substitute within reasonable time, but then terminate your contract with said client or whatever?
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So long as it is a genuine right of substitution, meaning the client agrees with and would accept a substitute as sometimes it is not genuine with the client saying no way, there isnt a problem. Being ill isnt a problem so long as you can meet your deliverables within your time to be delivered. Unless you say, have a car crash and you will be out for months then you probably will need to exercise the ROS, otherwise you just make the work up as required. Im a contractor (and work alone as a ltd. co) and I have friends that are also contractors in the same field and we all agreed between us to be each others substitute if required. To be honest, I doubt I will ever need to exercise it but the option is there
 
jaybee said:
Let me pick one that works where I do. IT role.

They attend organised company events and social gatherings.
They report to a line manager which is the same as many employees who completely dictates what that persons work is, how, where and when it is done and to what time.
They have to abide by the exact same SLAs as employees and are not doing project work. They cover BAU requests and general day to day tickets and have seemingly endless work available.
They have rigid fixed working hours and location set by the employer, to which they cover a shift pattern.
They use all company facilities and equipment in the same way employees do and attend company update meetings about how well the company is doing.
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Please tell me he has an annual performance review.

In my first contract job the assoc. director who approved my timesheets told me to use the timecode for illness instead of leaving a day blank when I first missed a day due to being ill. I had to remind him I was a contractor so probably that wasn't the right way to do it...
 
I have had it suggested to me that the contractor sat a desk over from me (in a previous role) could be my substitute and I could be theirs.

Nothing went down in writing and then COVID hit, allowing me to work from home for multiple clients on my own equipment, with my own licenses, on my own time. IR35 is a very minor concern for me now.
 
jaybee said:
Let me pick one that works where I do. IT role.

They attend organised company events and social gatherings.
They report to a line manager which is the same as many employees who completely dictates what that persons work is, how, where and when it is done and to what time.
They have to abide by the exact same SLAs as employees and are not doing project work. They cover BAU requests and general day to day tickets and have seemingly endless work available.
They have rigid fixed working hours and location set by the employer, to which they cover a shift pattern.
They use all company facilities and equipment in the same way employees do and attend company update meetings about how well the company is doing.
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So does that mean my builder who is going to rennovate my property is a inside IR35 disquised employee?

Im technically his line manager and i tell him what to do and when.

I also gave him a deadline too.
 
jonneymendoza said:
So does that mean my builder who is going to rennovate my property is a inside IR35 disquised employee?

Im technically his line manager and i tell him what to do and when.

I also gave him a deadline too.
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No because in the traditional sense he would have a "statement of work" with a deadline.
 
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