Poll: The Budget

What is your opinion of this budget ?

  • Very satisfied

    Votes: 26 6.6%
  • Reasonably satisfied

    Votes: 121 30.6%
  • Neutral

    Votes: 103 26.0%
  • Somewhat dissatisfied

    Votes: 79 19.9%
  • Very dissatisfied

    Votes: 67 16.9%

  • Total voters
    396
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
14,843
Because the 50% tax rate is fundamentally unfair and one of the highest punishments for success in the world?

Is that a question?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the 50p rate of tax should be kept.

I maintain that the data supplied on the 50p rate is too heavily skewed to be useable for either argument and I'm struggling to draw a solid conclusion.

So ultimately it comes down to ideology and values rather than the hard facts and figures. This is fine, but like so often in these debates, opinions are being banded around as fact.
 
Soldato
Joined
13 Aug 2008
Posts
7,080
This is why it makes no sense, it doesn't affect the super rich. It massively afffects the successful people in ordinary jobs, who get a payslip just like us and can't do anything about avoiding it.

Which is why it makes sense for the government to go after hard to hide transactions instead, such as high value house purchases.

Everyone's a winner, UK plc looks more attractive to overseas people thinking of working here, and tax receipts go up?

What's the problem, Labour look like stupid retards on this subject imo.
 
Caporegime
Joined
25 Jul 2005
Posts
28,851
Location
Canada
The problem with that statement is the first claim - "anyone can go to university if they have the ability". There's some truth in it, but there are also many issues. For example, do you not find it a coincidence that university attendance rates of students that come from poor backgrounds are significantly lower than those that come from wealthy? I imagine the key differentiator is the quality of primary and secondary education. Poor areas typically have bad primary and secondary schools, which means that even the brightest pupils do not get the education and start in life they deserve, resulting in them never achieving their potential and not going to university, and then not achieving any of the other things you list.

The problem with that is the large number of people that went to those schools and ended up in university. Yes the chance is potentially yes but if you put the effort in then you're still going to get the result out if you have the ability.

There's also the question of ability being genetic. If you have intelligent parents then you're probably more likely to end up at university and have the ability... Is it because the parents pushed you more, because you lived in a more affluent area (because your parents made more money due to their ability) or is it just random (I'm personally thinking this is the least likely).

Anyway as for the budget it seems not to bad at first glance. I'm apparently going to be £170 better off next year so that's a bonus, but there seems to also be more of a streamlining of the tax system which I'm all for.
 
Soldato
Joined
16 Jul 2004
Posts
14,075
The key difference is a complex array of social factors, not money.
I actually said the key difference is the quality of primary and secondary education, and within that I included basic values and work ethics as they are learned behaviours, not money. Money is just a facilitator.
IF a child's parents are intelligent and hardworking then are likely to be wealthier and to have more intelligent and hardworking offspring (intelligence is largely related to genetics and family environment/upbringing). Thus children of wealthy intelligent parents will likely go to university and do well, but that has nothing to do with wealth.
Without so much as Googling I am quite certain that we have no conclusions regarding the source of intelligence beyond "it's a mix of several things" that will include genetics, environment etc. To claim it's 'largely' genetic is a stretch. If you like you can post links to a few papers supporting your supposition but it's not accepted fact - we simply do not know enough.

Wealth in itself of course does not generate by some amazing chemical process successful children, but it does enable parents to provide hugely powerful environmental and educational support. A product of a parent being wealthy is that they can ensure maximum exploitation of any spark in their children.
The converse is also going to hold, with children of lazy workshy parents being less likely to put in the effort to get the grades and go to university.
But what makes them less likely? I don't think you can conclude it's their chemistry.
If a child is bright then they will tend to do well regardless of the school system, especially if the parents are responsible. Having poor teaching standards wont limit a bright child. I know, my teachers were god awful and I had a terrible time at school due to various reasons. But I worked hard, I got some supporting books, often free from the school library. My parents were close to the poverty line when i went to university. Finances had nothing to do with it.
I agree that particularly bright individuals will do particularly well in spite of difficult circumstances, however that's the exceptional situation. The vast majority of people will fall well within the bell curve of results for the institution where they were educated.
These are generalizations and i am to saying this is always the case without exception. But it does explain why on average students come from wealthier backgrounds. There may be a small minority of children who get severely disadvantaged by the school, but again, a bright child with caring parents can take care of this without cost.
My parents were very supportive of my homework, helped teach things above an beyond the school curriculum, made sure I took the mock exams seriously.
Any parent who thinks their child is not being properly educated at school can do a lot to help with no or minimal costs.
I, too, was lucky to have very supporting parents. Almost undoubtedly I owe much to my parents for striving hard to ensure that I had the best start they could possibly manage to afford me. Many of my peers at school did not have parents like them and they are significantly worse-off as a result.

Think of this scenario: at birth you take two twins and give them to two different families. One you give to a poor distressed family living in a poor area with poor schools, the other to a wealthy intellectual family living in a cultured part of the country, and they attend top schools, have extra tuition and piano lessons.

After 10 or 20 years, which one do you think would have done the best? I would be willing to bet that 9 times out of 10 when you did the above, the twin given to the wealthy family is significantly ahead of the other, and that wouldn't be because of genetics.

I do not think it is possible to argue that every child born in the UK is afforded equal opportunity to succeed.
 
Soldato
Joined
30 Apr 2006
Posts
17,998
Location
London
Still lol'ing at the Gromit line, someone must have shown Osborne this gif

ed-miliband-glee-hands.gif


Or this one

miliband.jpg
 
Caporegime
Joined
22 Jun 2004
Posts
26,684
Location
Deep England
As I understand it, the 50p rate was supposed to raise £3bn in 2011/12 but only raised £1bn.

The 50% rate was supposed to raise £3bn eventually but not in year 1 - in fact what was raised was pretty much what was expected to be raised. You cannot judge the effectiveness of a tax on one year. There's just no evidence to support the case for reducing the rate, the chancellor was always going to scrap this tax because that's what a Conservative chancellor does - bash Grannies to pay millionaires.
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
14,843
The 50% rate was supposed to raise £3bn eventually but not in year 1 - in fact what was raised was pretty much what was expected to be raised. You cannot judge the effectiveness of a tax on one year. There's just no evidence to support the case for reducing the rate, the chancellor was always going to scrap this tax because that's what a Conservative chancellor does - bash Grannies to pay millionaires.

See I thought this, but according to the House of Commons Standard Note SN00249:

SN00249 said:
Government anticipated: £1.3bn in 2010/11, rising to £3.05bn in 2011/12.

And the report Osborne referred to suggested that it had only raised £1bn in the period 2011/12 — I'm not sure how much it raised in the first year from April 2010.

I agree that it's an ideological decision, I'm just not sure about the figures.

Like I've said before though, with all the avoidance going on, the figures are terribly skewed.
 
Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,623
I actually said the key difference is the quality of primary and secondary education, and within that I included basic values and work ethics as they are learned behaviours, not money. Money is just a facilitator.Without so much as Googling I am quite certain that we have no conclusions regarding the source of intelligence beyond "it's a mix of several things" that will include genetics, environment etc. To claim it's 'largely' genetic is a stretch. If you like you can post links to a few papers supporting your supposition but it's not accepted fact - we simply do not know enough.

Wealth in itself of course does not generate by some amazing chemical process successful children, but it does enable parents to provide hugely powerful environmental and educational support. A product of a parent being wealthy is that they can ensure maximum exploitation of any spark in their children.But what makes them less likely? I don't think you can conclude it's their chemistry.I agree that particularly bright individuals will do particularly well in spite of difficult circumstances, however that's the exceptional situation. The vast majority of people will fall well within the bell curve of results for the institution where they were educated.I, too, was lucky to have very supporting parents. Almost undoubtedly I owe much to my parents for striving hard to ensure that I had the best start they could possibly manage to afford me. Many of my peers at school did not have parents like them and they are significantly worse-off as a result.

Think of this scenario: at birth you take two twins and give them to two different families. One you give to a poor distressed family living in a poor area with poor schools, the other to a wealthy intellectual family living in a cultured part of the country, and they attend top schools, have extra tuition and piano lessons.

After 10 or 20 years, which one do you think would have done the best? I would be willing to bet that 9 times out of 10 when you did the above, the twin given to the wealthy family is significantly ahead of the other, and that wouldn't be because of genetics.

I do not think it is possible to argue that every child born in the UK is afforded equal opportunity to succeed.

I have a degree in psychology (and Artificial Intelligence) majoring in cognitive psychology, computational linguistics and neurophysiology with a particular emphasis on natural and artificial intelligence & reasoning. If you want to discuss the factors that affect child intelligence in detail we can in a different thread: I you are interested just use Google scholar
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...tics&btnG=Search&as_sdt=0,38&as_ylo=&as_vis=0

Intelligence is one of the most well known behavioral traits with centuries worth of research and very solid modern science backing claims of genetics, biological factors and environmental factors.

A rough summary is basically a child's intelligence is roughly 50% hereditary and 50% environmental, with the environment mostly being related to the child's family environment.

I never said that the intelligence of a child is purely determined genetically, but genetics COMBINED with family environment is a very strong predictor for predicting a child's intelligence when average across a population. I also hinted at aspects such as work ethic as an important environmental factor. Intelligence (and work ethic) is also a good predictor of socio-economic status, life-long salary, and wealth when average across a population. Therefore there is a circular feedback that intelligent hardworking adults are more likely to raise intelligent hard working children are are more likely to go to university, do well in a career, earn a good salary and complete the circle by raising bright hard working children.

The important thing here is that wealth is not making a difference to this, it is just a by product.



your example of identical twins separated at birth into different family of different social status is exactly the kind of data that researchers try to gather. Identical twins split at birth is the holy grail to a psychologist. there are conventions world wide for twins to turns up and do various tests, and any twin that was separated early will be like gold to these studies.
It is such phenomena which give rise to the well known understanding of genetics and intelligence.

In this scenario the environmental factors that affect the identical wins would have an affect, but it is not the wealth differences that are important. You don't have to be rich to help with your child's homework. And you can't teach intelligence directly.
 
Last edited:
Associate
Joined
2 Feb 2010
Posts
826
You will be about £242 worse off in 2012/13

not to mention pay freeze, inflation and public sector worker tax ( I mean pension contribution increases) plus the increases in all other areas of cost of living, childcare will go up etc. etc.

probably a lot more than £242 the changes today rob me for!

thats why I'm dissatisfied with the budget and this shameful government

Yes if only we had a Labour government to borrow even more money, spend irresponsibly beyond our means and increase our debt levels so that they can buy votes from morons.

Who ran up the bill we're paying now? Certainly wasn't the Conservatives. Who always have to come in after a spend crazy, irresponsible and ridiculous Labour government to pick up the pieces? The Conservatives.
Who gets all the stick and the blame and the bad reputation for cleaning up another Labour mess? The Conservatives.

We've been here before, we know how it ends.

We're in serious trouble, if the Eurozone gets worse we could be in even more trouble. The only reason we're holding on right now is the drastic austerity measures put into place. However, these measures are barely touching the debt, they haven't even come close to wiping out the deficit. We're still spending way beyond our means.

No government can do everything right for every person, there is so much work that still needs to be done. What we need is the country on a stable enough financial footing that we can really start talking about reforming education and genuinely trying to reduce the deep rooted social issues the country has.

Can't see how any Labour supporter genuinely believes in the nonsense Miliband came out with today. Soundbites, insults surrounded by a load of waffle, no credible alternatives, policies or ideas put forward.
 
Soldato
Joined
3 Jan 2004
Posts
3,489
Location
At Home
Miliband just came across as as a gibbering, spluttering idiot today. He knew most of the voting public ( and many non-voters ) would be watching and he thought he would play the American style "confuse the opposition" style camera ready hard-man. I was actually cringing when he took to the mic - it was embarrassing.

Most people in the UK want a Gov. that is going to sort their problems and the economy - they don't want a government who can do the soundbites, the quick fixes or the promises.... which is what he seemed to excel in.

He said nothing of interest - and did nothing to sell Labour or his views.
 
Last edited:
Permabanned
Joined
31 Dec 2007
Posts
10,034
Yes if only we had a Labour government to borrow even more money, spend irresponsibly beyond our means and increase our debt levels so that they can buy votes from morons.

Who ran up the bill we're paying now? Certainly wasn't the Conservatives. Who always have to come in after a spend crazy, irresponsible and ridiculous Labour government to pick up the pieces? The Conservatives.
Who gets all the stick and the blame and the bad reputation for cleaning up another Labour mess? The Conservatives.

We've been here before, we know how it ends.

We're in serious trouble, if the Eurozone gets worse we could be in even more trouble. The only reason we're holding on right now is the drastic austerity measures put into place. However, these measures are barely touching the debt, they haven't even come close to wiping out the deficit. We're still spending way beyond our means.

No government can do everything right for every person, there is so much work that still needs to be done. What we need is the country on a stable enough financial footing that we can really start talking about reforming education and genuinely trying to reduce the deep rooted social issues the country has.

Can't see how any Labour supporter genuinely believes in the nonsense Miliband came out with today. Soundbites, insults surrounded by a load of waffle, no credible alternatives, policies or ideas put forward.

Love how u assume I support labour, I don't!

The capitalist system is what's broken, oh and for the record the Major government racked up more debt than the Blair/Brown lot

Oh and as we are into personal insults I was gonna do a mock up of Cameron and mr blobby as he's put on a but, but I cba
 
Soldato
Joined
17 Jan 2011
Posts
4,450
Location
London
Would like to see the increase in personal allowance now to be honest, in a years time I wont be able to benefit from it much as hopefully I'll be a student again. I'd rather have the tax benefit now to benefit me then by allowing me to save more in the meantime.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
17 Oct 2002
Posts
50,385
Location
Plymouth
The capitalist system is what's broken, oh and for the record the Major government racked up more debt than the Blair/Brown lot

You keep repeating this lie over and over, but it's massively flawed on two counts.

Firstly, the comparison involves completely different points in the economic cycle, and hence is comparing apples with oranges. To look at Labour's debt % at the same point in the economic cycle, you need to be comparing it with the period around between 1988 and around 1992, not with the post recession climb, which makes the figures rather different.

Secondly, you appear to be confusing debt % as a proportion of GDP with debt absolutes. Between 1990 and 1997, Major added approx £300bn to the debt, approx £42bn per year, while coming out of a recession. Contrast that with Blair/Brown, who added approx £47bn a year to the debt while going through a boom...

Even ignoring the economic cycle, your point is still fundamentally false.
 
Soldato
Joined
31 May 2009
Posts
21,257
I am going to be 9000 a year worse off starting next month, thats mostly the fault of the northern ireland health minister, or more accurately his civil servants who answer to no one.
Then next year I figure we'll be a further 1200 pounds worse off due to George.

The squeezed middle, oh yes, certainly part of that. Labour spent years squeezing, conservatives doing the same.
I wonder how many benefit scrounging scum breeder families one would have to execute before it makes a difference to the taxbill.
 
Soldato
Joined
13 Aug 2008
Posts
7,080
I am going to be 9000 a year worse off starting next month, thats mostly the fault of the northern ireland health minister, or more accurately his civil servants who answer to no one.
Then next year I figure we'll be a further 1200 pounds worse off due to George.

The squeezed middle, oh yes, certainly part of that. Labour spent years squeezing, conservatives doing the same.
I wonder how many benefit scrounging scum breeder families one would have to execute before it makes a difference to the taxbill.

If you look at the tax statement, quite a lot and it wouldn't make that much difference.

You'd have to murder pensioners to make the biggest difference.
 
Soldato
Joined
20 Apr 2007
Posts
3,467
Well according to the BBC calculator iam going to be £162 better off but it doesn't take into account that the war on the motorist is probably going to see me without a job within a few years, win some lose some I suppose.
 
Soldato
Joined
29 Jul 2010
Posts
23,836
Location
Lincs
If you look at the tax statement, quite a lot and it wouldn't make that much difference.

You'd have to murder pensioners to make the biggest difference.

Shhh, don't let facts get in the way of the vitriol that is incorrectly held by the vast majority of the ignorant right that all their taxes are hoovered up by the ****less workshy unemployed. (f.eckless is censored :confused:)

Pension spending accounts for ~18% of our total spending.

Health another ~18% (of which the majority of that is spent on the elderly)

Remaining welfare ~16% - of which straight unemployment benefit is only ~1.5%

Then if you look at what the actual 'long-term' unemployed figures are out of the total 2.6M,it is miniscule, with youth unemployment trebeling since 2008 to 95,000 - so before the financial crises it was 35,000... The remaining long term unemployed are mostly the 50+ who no-one wants to employ any more...

So yea, killing off all the cliche Wayne & waynetta's wouldn't make a lot of difference...

Euthanasia at 60 however... :p
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
22 Sep 2011
Posts
10,575
Location
Portsmouth (Southsea)
Why do people bash top earners so much?

I think it was an Andrew Marr documentary on the national consensus that revealed ~5-10% of the population (top earners) contributed something like 43% to income tax totals.

Jelousy and stereotyping me thinks..
What short sighted thinking.

The fact the rich pay most of the tax is a result of gross income inequality, not the hard work of the top 1%.
 
Back
Top Bottom